Unapproved Meeting Minutes BSI IST/5/-/15 (Posix) Panel Date: 24-November-1995 Location: X/Open Company Ltd Apex Plaza Forbury Road Reading RG1 1AX Berks. Those Present: David Cannon (Chairman) University of Exeter Jon Leigh NCC Derek Jones Knowledge Software Papers before the meeting: P292 EWOS EG-OSE Minutes, 27-29 June 1995 EWOS P293 European POSIX Testing Services: CTS5 POSIX.2 JL [Circulated at the IST/5/-/15 meeting, 8-September] P294 IST/5/-/15 Agenda, 24-Nov-1995 P295 IST/5/-/15 Minutes, 8-Sep-1995 P296 Impact of ISO 10646 on POSIX X/Open P297 WG15 Meeting report, Orlando, 23-27 Oct DC P298 WG15 Actions, Orlando, required of UK WG15 P299 WG15 N352r2: WG15/IEEE Synchronisation plan WG15 P300 WG15 N423: NP - Guide for conformance testing methodology (UK) P301 WG15 N595: CEN/TC304 PT01: User Requirements in Char Set Technology P302 WG15 N596: Fr: Relationship Among Open Systems Participants P303 WG15 N607: Report on CEN/TC304 activities KS P304 WG15 N622: X/Open: X/Open Single Unix Spec & ISO POSIX MK Papers available at the meeting: N001 Guide to Conformance Testing Methodology - Feedback JL Authors: DC David Cannon JL Jon Leigh MK Martin Kirk KS Keld Simonsen 0. Apologies Neil Keskar CSC Computer Sciences Martin Kirk X/Open 1. Adoption of Agenda: P294 Approved as presented. 2. Approval of Minutes: P295 It was suggested that X/Open's Web page should offer a pointer to the WG15 'web pages at Exeter. The minutes were approved as offered in P295. 3. Matters Arising, including Action items: 08-Sep: MK to determine possibility of making (a relevant portion of) the X/Open document E401 available to the panel and to WG15 at its October meeting. (Done: 17-Oct-95) P296 refers. 08-Sep: Convener to enquire of BSI on collation ordering standards appropriate to the UK profile. (Open action, 19-May) (Done: 14-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy N1896 to MK, who expressed an interest in reviewing the draft. (Done: 19-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy N1897 to DR, who expressed an interest. (Done: 18-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy JTC1 N3617 to DR. (Done: 21-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy N1843 to MK. (Done: 14-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy N1898 to Jon Leigh. (Done: 11-Sep-95) 08-Sep: Convener to copy N1923 to Jon Leigh, who expressed an interest in the draft via email. (Done: 14-Sep-95) 4. Progress of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15: . Consideration of ISO ballots: . Actions: The following votes were due in the past two weeks; members were invited to add comments prior to the deadlines by email: JTC1 N3599: NP: The guide for POSIX National Profiles and National Locales Vote closes 15-November. The Panel recommended a YES vote at its September meeting. SC22 N1896: POSIX-2 (Shell & Utilities) Amd 2 (=P1003.2b) PDAM registration and Ballot. Vote closes 17-November. This vote was issued in error by SC22. The document will be the subject of a CD registration ballot in the near future. No vote is required at present, the ballot has been withdrawn. SC22 N1897: POSIX System Administration - Part 2: Software Admin CD registration and Ballot. Vote closes 17-November. The Panel recommended a YES vote: the UK has active membership on the IEEE WG which is developing the document. JTC1 N3617: ISO/IEC DTR 14252, Guide to the POSIX Open System Environment. (=P1003.0 D18) Three month DTR (Type 3) letter ballot Ballot closes 20-November The Panel recommended a YES vote: the UK had active participation in the development of the draft in the IEEE group. . Status Report of SC22/WG15: P297 A brief discussion on the October meeting of WG15 noted that participation of that group had fallen off markedly, in line with the experience of this Panel meeting: while some 40 people had initially been expected to attend the WG15 Orlando meeting, the final count was fifteen. Attendance at IEEE meetings was also still declining. The subject of IST/5/-/15 meeting attendance was revisited under Agenda Item 8. Action: Convener to place the notes of the WG15, Orlando meeting on the IST/5/-/15 'web page: http://www.ex.ac.uk/~DCannon/IST-5-15home.html (Done: 27-Nov-95) . Actions: P298 9510-03 UK - give feedback on whether or not there is continued interest in the comprehensive test methods NP. (reformed from 9505-32 on the Convener). P300 DJ felt that standardisation of TMs was a flawed concept - they set into concrete something which should be a living thing; it was noted however that P300 refers to the methodology, rather than detailed test assertions. JL indicated that NCC were originally keen on the extended methodology NP (P300), but that it has largely been overcome by events. NCC no longer have manpower to pursue this NP, having devoted effort to EWOS EG OSE and CT, where something similar to the WG15 proposal is being pursued. POSIX is the primary input on the API side. It was proposed that WG15 should be active in monitoring this new work to ensure that it continues to accommodate POSIX requirements. Action: Convener to recommend that the proposed NP characterised in P300 be dropped, and that WG15 should keep close watch on the EWOS work to ensure that it does not become overly complex. WG15 should ask for a draft of EWOS/EG-CT/95/20 Issue 4.0 for a sanity check. WG15 should pass a copy of the 2003R (Revised) standard to EWOS for their information, and request EWOS to comment on how their work accommodates it. 9510-06 Member Bodies - submit issues on synchronization in writing or to the email reflector by April 8, 1996. No additional issues will be considered under the synchronization agenda item at the May, 1996 meeting. P299 The Panel has no significant issue with the Synchronisation plan in its current form, and proposes no changes of its own (save removal of references to now-defunct Rapporteur Groups). The first Danish proposal (WG15 N381: Denmark comments on synchronization plan) to circulate IEEE PARs in the WG15 mailing appears mostly harmless and would not represent an excessive overhead. The second proposal in the same paper, to circulate working drafts regularly after the document enters the IEEE ballot process, is more contentious; at this point the IEEE assembles a ballot group where its members pay ($50-00) to receive the drafts and to comment on them. The IEEE may have a problem issuing free copies to WG15, when individual members of WG15 are already eligible to join the ballot groups and are often members of the IEEE groups drafting the documents. A solution to this may be for the IEEE 'ballot group formation' invitations to be formally circulated in the WG15 mailings - again not an excessive overhead - to ensure that all WG15 member bodies are advised that a draft is about to enter this critical phase, and to allow them to formally enter the process for those documents which are of crucial interest to them. 9510-08 Member Bodies - provide URLs and other information they would like posted to the WG15 web page. The official WG15 'web page at dkuug.dk: http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG15 already points to the UK's (unofficial) WG15 document source. Action: DJ to send the Australian Open Systems URL to the Convener, for forwarding to the WG15 'webmaster. 9510-10 Member Bodies - review the full N595 document and the liaison report N607 and submit written contributions to be used to form the WG15 response to SC22 for a common plan of work within CEN/TC304. P301, P303 [P301 contains selected extracts from SC22 N1961, which is the full text of CEN/TC304/PT01] There was lengthy discussion of the above action, and of the papers it referred to; the items referenced in P303 for particular consideration were: "L/11113b Message interface with localisers. Providing input and output in natural languages is a major task in the localisation process. In many cases the maker of the application is not able to provide a localised product for all languages of the world, and a standard for specifying messages available to national localisers or users would make localisation available in more cultures. Tools for generating and maintaining message catalogues and APIs to interface the message catalogues are also needed." The table on P45 of SC22 N1961 (PT01) references this item as L/11113a. The Panel felt that this was a useful proposal, and had no reason to think that P303's suggestion to proceed with the work in WG20 was misconceived. The Panel believes that X/Open is working on similar functionality. "L/1312 Update POSIX to cover more cultural conventions. The formal specification techniques for Locales in POSIX are to be extended to cover more classes of cultural conventions than is possible in the current version. This extension of the POSIX model is very slowly underway in WG20 and WG15." It is not clear to the Panel exactly what is proposed here. Over time a wide variety of changes have been suggested for inclusion in 1003.2b. Detailed proposals are requested of CEN/TC304 before any constructive comment can be made on the technical merit of this requirement. P303 suggests that internationalisation expertise is limited in the IEEE and that therefore the proposed work should be carried out in WG15/RIN: it is not apparent to the Panel that extensive internationalisation manpower is available in or to that group either. "L/132 Formal Specification Techniques for cultural data (in addition to POSIX). Develop additional formal specifiaction techniques for cultural data. To be done in co-operation with SC21. Recently approved WI by SC22, CD expected in 1996." P303 indicates that this is WG20's 14652 project. SC22 N1961 mentions only X/Open as a source of research activity or standardisation. P303 goes on to suggest that WG15 should liaise strongly with WG20 to ensure POSIX alignment, and the Panel would endorse this proposal. "L/2111b Guidelines on national specifications of cultural conventions. An NP from WG15 is out for ballot in JTC1, it has passed SC22 ballot recently. The work has been underway for two years, but have not had a lot of progress. European input would be beneficial to the project. Develop Euopean guidelines that can serve as input to the international work item." P303 indicates that this item would require the scope of the proposed NP to be enhanced to encompass all of the CEN requirement - with all that that entails. The Panel has no clear picture of what extensions are involved, and requests that CEN/TC304 provide a detailed description of the technical aspects of the proposal. P303 goes on to propose that the work be undertaken in WG15/RIN; it is not clear that the existing NP will be processed in WG15/RIN, (if approved) due to manpower limitations, therefore the Panel is less sure that an extended work item can be completed by that body. "L/212 International cultural registry Other ISO work is dependent on the existence of an international registry rather than a European one, making this a high priority item. The work on this has been stalled in SC22 and WG20, so the best way to proceed may be ... to fast-track ... the European cultural register." The Panel had no objection to this proposal. "L/31 Update POSIX to include locale default rules POSIX locales are not always available for any language and culture, and a user then has a need for specifying another locale which is acceptable, for example which other language that messages are acceptable in, if the application does not have messages in the native language. This should be multi- level fallback rules, so that the user can specify a set of preferences. The internationalisation model and APIs need to be modified to accommodate this need. New, but small item for WG15." Again, the Panel had an unclear picture of what was required here, and requests that CEN/TC304 provide a detailed technical description of the proposal. However, assuming that the proposal was intended to dovetail into L/11113b rather than duplicate any of that effort, the Panel felt that the idea was a useful one. The proposal in P303 to pursue the work in WG15/IEEE seemed appropriate. "C/3131 Guide on conversion between UCS coding forms. A utility 'iconv' is defined in POSIX.2b, and an associated API should be defined, of example as part of WG20 internationalisation/UCS APIs. A guide will be developed for implementors of conversion functions in operating systems (such as POSIX iconv). This guide could be input to the WG20 work on APIs for internationalisation." P303 proposes that WG20 has planned work on APIs on coded character sets, and that the work should be progressed there. The Panel had no objection to this, but noted that while the C standard now has multibyte character support, there is only one known implementation. The Panel was concerned that, like some previous Standards work, effort could be poured into this while the industry takes a different course. "C/332 Support for locale registry in POSIX operating systems This work item will add support for linking to the International registry of Locales in ISO/IEC 9945. Support for the locales themselves is already in C, C++ and POSIX, but work to include support for the registry is not begun." This suggested to the Panel that the proposal permitted the remote access of a locale registry over a network, for example. Again the technical detail was missing, and CEN/TC304 is requested to provide this in order that a meaningful response be possible. P303 suggested that the work be included in 1003.2b; if this has any hope of happening a detailed proposal is required very soon. Overall, the Panel felt that many of the above ideas had merit: it is not clear however that there is the manpower available to produce the results - particularly in the timescales suggested, which are all wildly optimistic. Internationalisation expertise is exceptionally sparse; expected formal voting dates on all eight of the above items range from 1996 to 1998. SC22 N1961 contains over eighty items in total, some seventy of which are new items and all are targeted to be ready for formal vote before 1999. P303 ends by suggesting: "The most urgent work is L/2111b, L/212 and C/332. Based on my experience with work in this area, I would advise that the limited personal resources be gathered in one place, so that long liaison dialogues could be avoided. As the work is international in nature, and a number of relevant persons are not active in regional activities such as CEN or IEEE, my recommendation would be to do the work either in WG15 or WG20." Certainly the existing liaison structure is cumbersome, if not totally inadequate, for the degree of multi-committee interworking proposed by SC22 N1961, and the suggestion to concentrate manpower and effort in one place is a good one. If the proposals in SC22 N1961 are accepted, SC22 should be requested to endorse this recommendation and nominate the preferred WG. 9510-11 Member Bodies - review N596 and provide written comments or extensions for the May, 1996 meeting. P302 No comment. 9510-12 Member Bodies and X/Open Liaison - review N622 in the context of providing an ISO specification in alignment with the Single Unix Specification and come to the May, 1996 meeting with a preferred tactical method to achieve this (if appropriate). P304 DJ: Amend 9945-1 and 9945-2 to include the SUS extras. There is an outstanding issue as to what to do with those parts of the SUS which don't fit into 9945-1 or -2. The Panel didn't feel that the SUS itself should be adopted as an IS, since its format is totally different to ITTF documents, and it defines areas already specified in 9945-1 and -2, but with different wording. If amendments to 9945-1 and 9945-2 aren't acceptable then the Panel suggested developing a document which references 9945-1 and -2 then defines the extras offered by the SUS. 9510-28 UK - report on the status of the Framework for User Requirements (DISC) and distribute the document before the next meeting. (RGCPA 9505-06) Don Folland (an ex member of RGCPA) was approached before the Panel meeting: he offered to try to trace a copy of the document. Action: DF to trace a copy of the Framework for User Requirements document (if possible) and pass it to the Convener for forwarding to WG15. Action: 9510-33 Member Bodies - identify appropriate users (of profiles) and seek feedback from them in the R&C process on how the profiles meet (or do not meet) their needs. (from RGCPA issue #2) The Panel members present had no experience of the issues behind this action item. Action to be held open for review at the next Panel meeting. . Resolutions: Resolutions from the WG15 meeting in Orlando are available on the 'web pages. 5. Progress of IEEE PASC Posix WGs . Consideration of IEEE ballots: . Status Report of IEEE PASC: . Security aspects: (DF) No reports. 6. Rapporteur Groups: . Report of Internationalisation RG (GL) P296 P296 was presented to WG15/RIN, which was actioned to incorporate the issues it raised into a revised report on the impact of 10646 on POSIX standards. (WG15 N583) Much of RIN's time at the October meeting was devoted to resolving the status of the items in the newly-developed RIN Issues List; by the end of the meeting twelve of the fourteen existing issues were closed, together with a further one of four new issues identified at the meeting. 7. Liaison with other Standards Committees and Panels: . IST/5 Report: (DC) No report - there has been no meeting of IST/5 since the last IST/5/-/15 meeting in September. . IST/5/-/14 Liaison: (DJ) DJ: Draft 3 of the C annex document is available, with Multibyte support and interpretations. Minor papers have been presented to WG15 on 'the way forward', including object oriented extensions to C. There have been proposals for C to move to align with C++ in certain areas, and also proposals to add classes to C. . SC22/WG21: A CD ballot on the document failed, with many adverse comments. The US abstained due to lack of quorum. The document is however in reasonable shape, and is stabilising. Complete chapters are in rewrite, but progress is being made. Next meeting is in March. Draft available from FTP sites: ftp://math.warwick.ac.uk/... (Root around!) 8. Any Other Business Applications testing proposals are rumoured to be gaining popularity with certain vendors, including MKS and X/Open; the latter may be considering some kind of branding scheme for conforming applications. Action: Convener to contact Paul Tanner, X/Open, re any information on the rumoured Application Testing work/survey currently being undertaken. Invite him to speak to the next IST/5/-/15 meeting. (Done: 18-Jan-96) Action: Re the diminishing attendance of IST/5/-/15 meetings, Convener to contact the X/Open 'webmaster and the WG15 Convener to check if a reference to the WG15 'web pages would be appropriate from the X/Open pages. (X/Open is already referenced from the WG15 pages). (Done: 4-Dec-95) The proposed UK meeting of WG15, 21 April(?) 1997, was noted. IST/5/-/15 will shortly be looking for a suitable venue. Members are invited to offer suggestions. Although the week of 21 April is suggested, this is not an immovable object. Schedule of future POSIX-related meetings, 1996: 23 February IST/5/-/15 Venue? 17 May IST/5/-/15 NFA 20-24 May ISO JTC-1/SC22/WG15 Denmark (target) 6 September IST/5/-/15 NFA 28-31 October ISO JTC-1/SC22/WG15 Munich, Germany 29 November IST/5/-/15 NFA Since attendance of IST/5/-/15 meetings is low, despite a number of recent attempts to attract new blood, it was suggested that the meeting frequency could be reduced - to possibly two meetings a year, scheduled two or three weeks before WG15 meetings. Action: Members to consider whether a reduction in the frequency of IST/5/-/15 meetings would increase the liklihood of their attending more meetings, and to respond to the Convener by all appropriate means. The meeting closed at 12:34