Unapproved Meeting Minutes BSI IST/5/-/15 (Posix) Panel Date: 19-May-1995 Location: X/Open Company Ltd Apex Plaza Forbury Road Reading RG1 1AX Berks. Those Present: Dave Cannon (Chairman) University of Exeter Martin Kirk X/Open Rob Smith NHS David Brownbridge Praxis Systems Greger Leijonhufvud Friherr Peter Owens CCTA Neil Keskar CSC Computer Sciences P279 IST/5/-/15 Agenda, 19-May-1995 P280 IST/5/-/15 Minutes, 24-Feb-1995 P281 UK Report to ISO WG15, Twente, 8-12-May P282 WG15 Actions, Twente, required of UK WG15 P283 WG15 Meeting report, Twente, 8-12 May DF P284 RIN N146: Use of IS 10646 in Posix Interfaces WG15/RIN P285 WG15 N558: DK Action Item Report Dk P286 WG15 N576: CCTA letter - POSIX What is the Future? CCTA Authors: DF Don Folland Dk WG15's Danish Member Body RIN WG15 Internationalisation group CCTA Central Comms & Telecoms Agency 0. Apologies Derek Jones Knowledge Software Jon Leigh NCC 1. Adoption of Agenda: P279 Approved as amended 2. Approval of Minutes: P280 Approved with no changes. 3. Matters Arising, including Action items: 24-Feb: Convener to advertise availability of the two drafts passed by JL in these minutes. (Done: 26-Feb-95) 24-Feb: IST/5/-/15 to indicate to IST/5 and the Ada panel that differences exist in the conformance statements of the C and Ada Posix bindings, based on the underlying cultures. (Done: 14-Mar-95) 24-Feb: JL to forward a directory of testing services in Europe to Jerry Powell, lead rapporteur of WG15 RGCT, in response to 9410-19. (Done: 8-May-95) 24-Feb: Convener to send a copy of the JISC invitation to JL. (Done: 1-Mar-95) 24-Feb: Convener to contact Don Folland and ask if he is still interested in attending WG15 in May, and whether he wishes to apply for the AITS funds. (Done: 1-Mar-95) 24-Feb: Convener to follow up the suggestions for trawling for new members. (Done: 30-Apr-95) 24-Feb: Members to consider document N444 off-line and forward any comments to the convener by 14-April. The output from this to be forwarded to WG15 as the UK panel comment. (OBE: 15-Apr-95) 24-Feb: Is there a possibility of extracting cash from CEN to pay a consultant to establish accurate data in such a registry? Convener to ask IST/5 and Greger for interest/possibility. (Done: 14-Mar-95) 24-Feb: Members to email group with all useful FTP and 'web pointers. (Done: 19-May-95) Subject: (wg15-uk 683) P1003.12 (aka P1003.1g) FTP site... nemo.ncsl.nist.gov Subject: (wg15-uk 682) Posix FTP site... ...there is an IEEE PASC Study Group on Encryption APIs, which has established an anonymous ftp site at: ftp.tis.com Subject: (wg15-uk 680) IEEE PASC Web server http://stdsbbs.ieee.org:70/0 Subject: (wg15-uk 685) IEEE Web SD-11 page http://stdsbbs.ieee.org:70/0/pub/PASC/POSIX_11_94.htm Subject: (wg15-uk 684) WG15 Web pointer http://www.dkuug.dk/JTC1/SC22/WG15 Subject: (wg15-uk 681) FTP & Web pointers Posix Real Time Distributed Services Group - P1003.21 has an FTP site at: ft.sei.cmu.edu ISO has a Web Server, with a front page addressed as: http://www.iso.ch/welcome.html ...and last but not least: http://www.xopen.org 24-Feb: Convener to indicate a YES vote to GPNPNL, suggesting the work be accomplished in the IEEE PASC groups, since WG15 has limited resources. (Done: 2-Mar-95) 24-Feb: 9945-1:1990 is coming up for periodic review. WG15 Convener to be reminded of this. Convener to enquire of IST/5 whether the Amendments in track affect the periodic review clock. (Done: 14-Mar-95) 24-Feb: Get a body into the RGCT meeting in May to observe progress. Make a polite enquiry after the status of the UK Conformance proposal, which was targeted for comment by all JTC1 SCs at the SC22 meeting in September 1993. (Done: 11-May-95) 24-Feb: MK volunteered to check out the UK-based people at IEEE to see if they're aware of the BSI Posix panel and ask whether they felt they should attend. (Done: 19-May-95) Action: Convener to look at providing panel materials on the University of Exeter 'Web server. (Done: 21-July-95) 4. Progress of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15: P281,P286 PO talked to the letter from the CCTA (P286, tabled at the meeting) to Jim Isaak as Convener of WG15, which asks what the future of POSIX is to be. The CCTA is concerned that industry is moving away from POSIX to 'industry' standards such as X/Open's Spec 1170, and Windows NT, which includes a POSIX.1 API. The concern is that while the API base is there, no-one is writing POSIX-compliant applications. RS said this matched the NHS view too. Unix has lost the desktop war to Windows; this reduces end-user choice, which is a primary concern of the CCTA. How does POSIX - specifically WG15 - intend to address this problem? GL indicated that the POSIX API so far is insufficiently rich to fully support a wide range of attractive and useful applications, however POSIX-compliant code underlies a large number of Unix-based applications. RS asked whether members should be moving their effort to other standards areas, away from POSIX. There was general agreement that, while POSIX standards were appearing only slowly and while it appeared to be difficult to enforce perceived user needs into those standards, progress was more positive than could be expected from a dialogue with certain PC software market leaders. MK said that application conformance implied a promise from the vendor that he would be willing to port the application to another platform at a reasonable, pre-agreed cost. PO said that OSI offered an important lesson - you cannot force the market to take a particular route merely by producing standards. The POSIX experience is more heartening than OSI - there are vendors out there who are using the standards and who are contributing to their production. MK offered a diagram showing how an inverted pyramid of innovative vendor-specific applications and implementations are built on a base of formal standards from bodies like the IEEE and ISO: ___________________________________________ \ (Vendor Implementations) / ^ \ DEC, IBM, AT&T, HP / | \____________________________________/ | \ (Reference Implementations) / | \ OSF, etc / | Standardisation \______________________________/ Innovation | \ (Industry Standards) / | \ X/Open, NMF, OMG / | \________________________/ | \ (Formal Standards) / V \ IEEE, ISO, etc / \__________________/ PO: we're losing control of the end-users, because of the (low) cost of the products which are available to them which are non-standard. Only a draconian purchasing policy could coerce users away from shrink-wrapped vendor-specific PC software, and this wasn't practicable. Users only become aware of portability issues when they have to exchange data with a colleague or some more remote entity. Perhaps the standards process - including POSIX - should be more actively addressing data interchange problems. GL: if the CCTA stops attending (POSIX), the process will still continue, to some extent, but will not necessarily take a direction the CCTA wants. The question CCTA are really looking for an answer to is where should they best place their effort - X/Open for example or ISO? X/Open started as a consumer of standards, but is becoming more of a producer, through the production of specifications and interim 'standards'. Action: The extended discussion on the direction of POSIX, including Applications conformance, served to underline a continuing issue, rather than an action: what is the appropriate way for WG15 to take user input and benefit the industry? How can the process of assimilating user needs and encapsulating them in useful standards be accelerated? . Consideration of ISO ballots: . Actions: P284,P285 Action: Members to read P284 and respond to the email list on any concerns that they have on the use of IS 10646 in POSIX. On considering the relevant parts of the Danish report to WG15 (P285) the UK does not believe that reorder-after is necessary or useful. . Status Report of SC22/WG15, P283 Project Activities - registration, balloting 9945-0 LIS System Interface 22.21.01.01 System Interface [LIS {1372} CD reg: & LIS Progress LIS: no document expected in near future. The panel restated its view that the LIS was an academic exercise which looks less and less attractive as time passes - the official UK position has been to revisit the problem once WG11 (Bindings) has finished its deliberations and produced recommendations by which a POSIX LIS can be properly created. 9945-2 Shell & Utilities 22.21.02.01 Shell & Utilities base {2} IS 22.21.02.02 User Portability Ext. {2a} inc in IS 22.41 additional utilities {2b} CD reg: 9945-2: 2b to be distributed Draft 12 is earliest draft expected to be the draft submitted for CD registration. 22.43 Security Amendment {2c/6} CD reg: To be distributed soon 22.21.03.02 Batch Services {2d/15a} PDAM Ballot 2d ballot four months after submission to SC22 xxxxx-x Administered Systems 22.21.03.01 System Administration {1387.1/7+} Currently not an active document - it is just an overview document and is a placeholder for future work. 22.21.03.04 Software Administration{1387.2/7.2} R&C CD registration and concurrent ballot at SC22 and WG15. (Draft 14a) Maybe more work on this in the IEEE group starting in October. 22.21.03.05 User Administration {1387.3/7.3} R&C Projection: to reach CD registration stage by Oct 1995. Has gone to R&C at WG15, don't know about SC22. 22.21.03.03 Print Administration {1387.4/7.1} CD reg Maybe at CD registration early 1996. 22.21.03.02 Batch Services {15a} No current work in progress. Placeholder for future work. 9945-1 C Language Bindings 22.21.04.01 C Language binding {1} CD Reg: Doc published 22.39 Extensions to base {1a} na Draft 12 approved for Forwarding to WG15 and SC22. Administrator has not yet received Draft 12 for forwarding. 22.21.01.02.01 Real time extensions {1b/4} Merged publn expected N567 is a proposed disposition of comments, recommend that they be accepted. N547 contains the text of the comments. 22.21.01.02.02 Real time extensions {1c/4a} Dam ballot closes This document went through CD ballot with no objections, which means it is automatically a DIS. This breaks syncronization. Someone, probably the US, needs to submit a comment noting that syncronization is required. 22.21.40 Extensions to real time{1d/4b} na Draft 9 should be going out soon. Has been approved for R&C in WG15 and SC22. 22.42 Security Amendment {1e/6} CD reg: Soon for R&C at WG15 and SC22. 22.21.01.03.01 Transparent File Access{1f/8} CD reg: Likely to see CD registration after Oct meeting. 22.21.01.03.03 Protocol Ind. Interface{1g/12} WG R&C: Likely to see CD registration after Oct meeting. 22.21.01.03.04 Directory Services {xx} 1224.2 Dropping this work item. Real Time Technical Corrigenda? Status? Resolution to have DAM1 and TC merged prior to publishing. 14519 Ada Language Bindings [N548,N549] 22.21.04.02 Ada Language binding {5+} ed. changes to ITTF Disposition of comments was approved (N549) - Canada voted "no." No project identified for Ada real time: WG15 elected to fast-track the document. xxxxx Fortran Language Binding 22.21.04.03 Fortran Lang. binding {9} not active No comments. 14252 Guide to Posix OSE 22.38 TR14252 Guide to POSIX OSE {0} DTR status SC22 has not yet received the revised text for DTR ballot. 13210, 14515-x Test Methods 22.37 DIS 13210 Test Methods {3} IS-1994 No comments. 14515-1 Test Methods for 9945-1:1990 {2003.1} CD Disp of Comments Ballot will close July 30, need to be prepared for a disposition of comments by Aug 30 if receive any comments. 14515-2 Test Methods for 9945-2:1993 {2003.2} CD Reg Approval Second round of sending out to WG15 and SC22 for R&C has just started. Next draft will probably be the one going for CD registration, probably in 6 months. Comprehensive Test Methods NP Feedback from SC review. UK does not have the manpower to progress it. IEEE PASC SEC requested that this NP be passed around to other SECs to see if there was any interest. Have not received any comments. May not be any interest to futher this proposed NP. WG15 Convener has been actioned to determine what has happened to the NP. Denmark may have some interest in progressing this work. Guide for National Profiles & Locales Guide for National Profiles & National Locales [N387r] to JTC1 ballot A revised version has been forwarded to SC22 Secretariat which will forward it to JTC1 for consultative letter ballot - should be completed by next WG15 meeting. . Actions: P282 9505-01 All member bodies - Report progress on national profiles at the October meeting. GL reported that some responses had been received and would be considered in a revision of the en_GB documents, and that work was being done on a Welsh locale. 9505-40 All Member Bodies - If any serious defects are discovered in the document in 9505-39, notify Lowell Johnson directly prior to June 5. The US may use these comments as a basis for not taking the document forward as a US standard. ( This is an electronic copy of 1003.1i Technical Corrections to Real Time System API Extensions: Draft 2) Not yet received. 9505-47 Member bodies - Review documents listed in 9410-26. (open action item 9410-27) ( These are: . P1003.2b Shell and Utilities - Extensions: Draft 10 . P1003.1i Technical Corrections to Real Time System API Extensions: Draft 2 . P2003R Test Methods for Measuring Conformance to POSIX Standards (revision of IEEE Std. 1003.3:1991): Draft 5 ) Not yet received. . Resolutions: Action: Convener to post the resolutions to the email list. (Done: 20-May-95) 5. Progress of IEEE PASC Posix WGs . Consideration of IEEE ballots: . Status Report of IEEE PASC: MK reported that PASC has now reorganised itself into eight super-groups: system services shell & utilities language bindings security profiles system admin conformance testing distributed services . Security aspects: (DF) No report. 6. Rapporteur Groups: . Report of Verification RG ( ) Has offered to close down. . Report of Internationalisation RG (GL) . UK Profile and Locale. GL: What is the UK profile for? Is it the preferred GB way of specifying certain things, or is it (going to be) mandatory? RS indicated that the NHS would use such a profile to simplify the procurement process. There was some concern that use of POSIX_NOTRUNC might limit the interoperability of machines connected to remote file stores by NFS-type mechanisms. Specifying minima in a Profile is a good policy, rather than being over-precise. Rather than having a single profile, GL elected to go for ones based on three models: . locale based on the 8859-1 code set. (Most common) . system using the 10646 code set. . system supporting EUC character repertoires. Action: GL would like feedback on the preferred characteristics section. GL to email the UK list with a set of questions on the areas of the profile which he is most concerned about. Action: Convener to enquire of BSI on collation ordering standards appropriate to the UK profile. (Done: 22-Jun-95) Is the panel happy with the Profile work so far? Is X/Open (as an example vendor) happy with it? What does the panel do once the Profile is firmed out? It was suggested that the next revision of the profile is sent to a set of software vendors for their consideration and response. GL is currently working on a Welsh locale, in conjunction with some email contacts which the panel recently established. . Report of Profile Coordination RG ( ) Report included in P283. 7. Liaison with other Standards Committees and Panels: . IST/5 Report: (DC) Nothing of note. . IST/5/-/14 Liaison: (DJ) No report. 8. Any Other Business PO asked if OIW and POSIX would meet in conjunction at Gaithersburg. MK said probably not, OIW would change to holding meetings in varying locations, along the IEEE PASC model, and would attempt to co-locate with IEEE PASC in order to reduce meeting costs. Future meeting dates for 1995 are confirmed as follows: September 8 X/Open offices, 10:15 November 24