Unapproved Meeting Minutes BSI IST/5/-/15 (Posix) Panel Date: 24-Feb-1995 Location: X/Open Company Ltd Apex Plaza Forbury Road Reading RG1 1AX Berks. Those Present: Dave Cannon (Chairman) University of Exeter Martin Kirk X/Open Rob Smith NHS Derek Jones Knowledge Software Jon Leigh NCC P273 Prioritisation of IST/5 Work Items C/C++ P274 IST/5/-/15 Agenda, 24-Feb-1995 P275 IST/5/-/15 Minutes, 25-Nov-1994 P276 Proposed work on PROST POSIX TM programme NCC P277 WG15 N444: CEN Cultural Elements Registry WG15 P278 WG15 N515: US Action Item Report WG15 0. Apologies David Brownbridge Praxis David Ferbrache DRA (attending IST/33 as an initial liaison contact) 1. Adoption of Agenda: P274 The agenda was approved as presented. 2. Approval of Minutes: P275 The following comments on the emailed minutes were received and have been applied to the minutes posted as P275: > There was a widespread belief among the panel that X/Open is the > only body which is keeping Posix alive, particularly with > respect to Conformance testing. This statement was made by one person. I don't recall anybody else agreeing with it. This perception of POSIX/X/Open is a European one. Posix is alive and well in the US and there is much less awareness of X/Open over there. > Some public bodies are now asking for proof of application > conformance, but the tools are not in place to enforce tests. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ they are relying on verbal assurances and are not asking for any kind of testing, even though tools are available to check such claims. > Action: 9410-27 Member bodies: Review documents listed in 9410-26. > (Open) > Convener to copy the following documents to the following > panel members on receipt of the documents from WG15: > ******** RS not JL****** . 1003.2b D10 to JL for review. > . 1003.1i D2 to DJ for review. ******** JL not RS****** . 2003R D5 to RS for review. Section 3 Para 5: "It was expected that the NHS will be requesting X/Open's XPG4 as a mandatory requirement" should read as "The NHS is evaluating XPG4 and expect it to be an advisory requirement". Section 3 Para 13: Should read: "The revision of the C standard MAY allow local character codes in identifiers", and "Reserved words will PROBABLY not be included". 3. Matters Arising, including Action items: P277, P278 25-Nov: JL to report back on EWOS EG CT progress at the next panel meeting. Two groups in EWOS are now active: One is working on OSE profiles, and produced a working document in January. This draft explains the different interfaces in use in OSEs and looks at the different technical areas involved. It compares current OSE profiles, including some Posix ones. The first part of the document is fairly stable. Conformance testing is left to the other group, EG CT, which is working on a fairly early draft of a document due for publication in March. Posix Conformance Testing is covered in a section of this draft. JL passed copies of the two documents to the Panel; they are . EWOS/TA/95/040: EG-OSE ETG nn Development and Use of OSE Profiles. . EWOS EG/CT 95/???: EG-CT nn OSE Profile Conformance Testing. Copies of these two documents are available to panel members (and other interested parties) on request from the panel convener, D.Cannon@exeter.ac.uk, Phone 01392 263998, Fax 01392 211630, or by post at: University of Exeter IT Services Laver Building North Park Road Exeter EX4 4QE Action: Convener to advertise availability of the two drafts passed by JL in these minutes. (Done: 26-Feb-95) 25-Nov: Convener to pass a copy of the EWOS EG SEC document to Greger Leijonhufvud for comment and response. (Done: 5-Dec-94) GL has not made any response to the panel on his reactions to the document. DC has compared the en_GB part of the document with GL's draft UK Locale and will forward a set of comments circulated at the meeting to CEN/TC 304 for consideration. 25-Nov: DF has not yet replied to the query on his acting as a contact for IST/33 (from IST/5). Convener to chase. (Done: 28-Nov-94) DF indicated that he is interested and able to liaise with IST/33, and offered his apologies for the panel meeting in progress in order to attend his first IST/33 meeting. 25-Nov: DJ to supply text for a comment on the conformance statement in the Ada document. (Done: 23-Dec-94) DJ's comments have been passed to IST/5 for forwarding. Modula-2 adopts the same wording as the C binding for rigourous conformance, but the Ada binding goes its own way. This seems to follow the Ada culture, but there is an argument that making the conformance statements the same across standards would be helpful. Action: IST/5/-/15 to indicate to IST/5 and the Ada panel that differences exist in the conformance statements of the C and Ada Posix bindings, based on the underlying cultures. (Done: 14-Mar-95) 25-Nov: 9410-02 UK: To provide a report on the progress of its National Profile to SC22/WG15 by the May 1995 meeting. (Ongoing) No new work has been produced to date. 25-Nov: 9410-06 Member bodies: Comment to WG15 RIN draft position on ISO 10646 impact on POSIX standards (open action item 9310-47, 9405-23) (Ongoing) [The RIN Draft position paper is not yet available for the panel to comment on] 25-Nov: 9410-19 Member bodies: Provide input on identification of existing conformance testing activities to the WG15 RGCT Rapporteur (See N526, section 5.1) (Done: 24-Feb-95) 25-Nov: Convener to pass N526 to JL for comment on existing conformance testing activities prior to the next IST/5/-/15 meeting. (Done: 21-Dec) RGCT wanted a list of conformance activities and bodies; the panel noted that this seemed a rather open-ended request. Action: JL to forward a directory of testing services in Europe to Jerry Powell, lead rapporteur of WG15 RGCT, in response to 9410-19. 9410-26 United States: Forward the following documents to the convener for SC22/WG15 Review and Comment: P1003.2b Shell and Utilities - Extensions: Draft 10 P1003.1i Technical Corrections to Real Time System API Extensions: Draft 2 P2003R Test Methods for Measuring Conformance to POSIX Standards (revision of IEEE Std. 1003.3:1991): Draft 5 25-Nov: 9410-27 Member bodies: Review documents listed in 9410-26. (Open) Convener to copy the following documents to the following panel members on receipt of the documents from WG15: . 1003.2b D10 to RS for review. (Done: 3-Mar-95) . 1003.1i D2 to DJ for review. . 2003R D5 to JL for review. To date only one of the three drafts have been made available - 1003.2b D10 - and this as the first few pages from IST/5 with a note that the whole document can be obtained on request. The document will be passed to Rob Smith asap. 25-Nov: Convener to email the membership asking if there is any interest in taking the AITS cash. (Done: 28-Nov-94) There was a brief discussion on the subject of funding for travel to ISO WG meetings. DC was informed by JISC on the 22-Feb that it has assigned GBP 1500 for him to attend the two WG15 meetings in 1995 (Holland and the USA). JISC also indicated that it has contacted the DTI and established that AITS funding is available for employees of Universities. DC has contacted the IST/5 secretary (who is unaware of this development) and asked her to confer with JISC. Meanwhile the AITS funds are available to other eligible panel members. Don Folland had expressed an interest in the email trawl and those present approved following this up. JL said he was unaware of the potential of travel funding from JISC and asked for a copy of the original JISC invitation. Action: Convener to send a copy of the JISC invitation to JL. (Done: 1-Mar-95) Action: Convener to contact Don Folland and ask if he is still interested in attending WG15 in May, and whether he wishes to apply for the AITS funds. (Done: 1-Mar-95) 25-Nov: Convener to approach IST/5 to determine an effective means of increasing the panel's attendance/activity. (Done: 7-Dec-94) IST/5 made a number of suggestions - use the Internet (presumably the BCS newsgroup) and draw up an article for publication in the DISC newsletter (and potentially other publications). Action: Convener to follow up the suggestions for trawling for new members. (Done: 30-Apr-95) 25-Nov: Convener to email a summary of the above proposal on reapportioning financial support for IST/5's panels to the email reflector for comment and feedback prior to IST/5. (Done: 28-Nov-94) 25-Nov: 9410-35 Member bodies: Look at the technical aspects of SC22/WG15 N444 and the applicable portion of SC22/WG15 N515, in time for the May 1995 SC22/WG15 meeting. (Open) 25-Nov: Convener to circulate the documents N444 and N515 for discussion next meeting. (Done: 19-Feb-95) Attempting to weigh the technical considerations of N444 in the panel session proved unfruitful, other than: "The UK would like to be convinced that there is a genuine requirement over a wide set of National bodies that such a registry is accurate and useful". Action: Members to consider document N444 off-line and forward any comments to the convener by 14-April. The output from this to be forwarded to WG15 as the UK panel comment. (OBE: 15-Apr-95) Action: Is there a possibility of extracting cash from CEN to pay a consultant to establish accurate data in such a registry? Convener to ask IST/5 and Greger for interest/possibility. (Done: 14-Mar-95) 25-Nov: MK to find and advise email list of anonymous FTP sites for Posix standards, for use by IST/5/-/15's members. None known. MK reported that the IEEE is getting wary of anonymous FTP sites. Panel members noted that there is a growing number of relevant (and less relevant) FTP and World-Wide-Web ('web) sites of standards work. Action: Members to email group with all useful FTP and 'web pointers. (Done: 19-May-95) 4. Progress of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15: . Consideration of ISO ballots: PDAM 2 9945-1:1990 Posix System API: Threads Extension (P1003.1c D10) Letter ballot to be returned by 1995-02-18! Panel recommends YES vote with no comment. WD 9945-2 Amd 1: Posix Shell and Utilities (P1003.2b D10) for review and comment. (Full text requested from the BSI) Copy to go to Rob Smith. Proposed NWI: Guide to Posix National Profiles and National Locales (now renamed to avoid confusion with the SGFS concept of Standards Profiles). Letter ballot to be returned by 1995-03-08. Action: Convener to indicate a YES vote to GPNPNL, suggesting the work be accomplished in the IEEE PASC groups, since WG15 has limited resources. (Done: 2-Mar-95) . Actions: . Status Report of SC22/WG15, . Actions: . Resolutions: 5. Progress of IEEE PASC Posix WGs . Consideration of IEEE ballots: . Status Report of IEEE PASC: PASC is being reorganised - 123 bodies at the PASC meeting compared with 43 in SEC is top heavy; this will be changed, with IRs being restricted in their voting rights. Software Administration has got through its latest ballot in the IEEE. Print Administration just failed its last ballot (60%). User Administration (1387.3) also failed its latest IEEE ballot, and will therefore be recirculated. Action: 9945-1:1990 is coming up for periodic review. WG15 Convener to be reminded of this. Convener to enquire of IST/5 whether the Amendments in track affect the periodic review clock. (Done: 14-Mar-95) . Security aspects: (DF) 6. Rapporteur Groups: . Report of Verification RG ( ) P276 Action: Get a body into the RGCT meeting in May to observe progress. Make a polite enquiry after the status of the UK Conformance proposal, which was targeted for comment by all JTC1 SCs at the SC22 meeting in September 1993. (Done: 11-May-95) . Report of Internationalisation RG (GL) . Report of Profile Coordination RG (PO) 7. Liaison with other Standards Committees and Panels: . IST/5 Report: (DC) The report to IST/5 for December was tabled. . IST/-/2 Liaison: ( ) . IST/5/-/14 Liaison: (DJ) DJ reported that the addendum is still a proposed draft - the clause numbers are wrong. The last meeting of WG14 proposed only minor changes to the C standard. Adding classes to C is gaining popularity - but they won't be compatible with C++, probably. DJ has proposed the removal of the C library in that Posix (eg) now specifies an (incomplete) set of library functions. This looks like exciting a debate in both C and Posix, since Posix doesn't specify a full C library API. More interpretations have been requested, and this is keeping WG14 active. 8. Any Other Business There was a debate on the possibility of a joint 'Standards Day' with IST/5/-/14 as an attempt to drum up more support for the panels. An organiser is needed... in these troubled times none of the panel members present indicated that they had the time available to spend. Action: MK volunteered to check out the UK-based people at IEEE to see if they're aware of the BSI Posix panel and ask whether they felt they should attend. Future meeting dates for 1995 are confirmed as follows: May 19 Reading, X/Open 10:00 September 8 Think about whether we want to do this meeting in May. November 24