Unapproved Meeting Minutes BSI IST/5/-/15 (Posix) Panel Date: 30-Sep-1994 Location: BSI HQ Room 312 389 Chiswick High Road London W4 4AL Those Present: Dave Cannon (Chairman) University of Exeter Rob Smith NHS Papers before the meeting: P254 WG15 N461: Guide for POSIX National Profile & Locale WG15 P255 NHS Requirement for Application Conformance Testing RS P256 Notes of IST/21/-/1/4 & IST/5/-/15 meeting, 10-Mar-94 DC P257 IST/5/-/15 Agenda, 30-Sep-1994 P258 IST/5/-/15 Minutes, 27-May-1994 P259 D 1.2: English Language UK National Profile for Posix GL P260 IST/5/-/15 (Posix) Panel Report to IST/5 DC P261 Responses to P255: NHS Requirement for Apps Conformance Various P262 UK Response to DTR 14252: Guide to the Posix OSE BSI P263 NP for Guide to Posix National Profiles and Locales SC22 P264 Response to IST/-/2: Scope & Content of Posix Profiles DC Authors: DC David Cannon GL Greger Leijonhufvud RS Rob Smith 0. Apologies Apologies were received from: David Brownbridge Praxis Neil Keskar CSC Martin Kirk X/Open 1. Adoption of Agenda: P257 Due to the lack of attendees the formal agenda was scrapped. The best means of progressing the needs expressed in P255 (and the responses in P261) was discussed. Actions noted below on other topics are simply a mechanism for holding the problem(s) open and following them up. 2. Approval of Minutes: P258 Those present approved the minutes as posted. 3. Matters Arising, including Action items: P255,P261 The responses (in P261) to the NHS requirement paper (P255) were welcome as indicating a widespread (if not always positive) concern about the issue of Posix application conformance. It was decided that this concern merited the discussion being carried to WG15: Action: Convenor to contact Jim Isaak, convenor of WG15, requesting an agenda item for the October meeting of WG15 to discuss the issues of Posix Application Conformance. (Done: 4-Oct-94) The main points arising from the discussion of P261 were based around a suggested 'range' of levels of application conformance: . 'rigorously compliant': such applications use only Posix APIs, profiles, etc, plus a suitable language standard ('c', Fortran, Ada, Modula-2) if appropriate. . 'compliant': where Posix offers an API, profile, etc, it is used, together with a suitable language standard if appropriate. (NB: this permits non-standardised extensions, such as a GUI, if the application requires it). . 'cognisant': the application uses Posix APIs, profiles, etc, where these best fit the application's needs. Where they don't, the application has made free to use other facilities. . 'non-compliant': the application does the job it is required to do. It does not use Posix or any other standard more than it has to. This suggested range is not definitive or exhaustive; some other set may be more useful or representative, but it led to a number of further proposals: . don't push for 3rd party conformance testing of applications - 1st party (vendor or supplier) assurance would be adequate, especially if there is some means of arbitrating any subsequent dispute over the vendor's claim. . it would be useful to the end user to know if any given application was likely to change its level of compliance in the future. . a label on the shrink-wrapper would be enough to give users a 'feel-good' factor about the product, eg: "This program is POSIX compliant" - the similar XPG4 compliance labels do give vendors a competitive edge - since the IEEE owns the POSIX name it could police the mis-use of compliance claims by requiring the justification or removal of such wording within some reasonable time-span where such claims were disputed. . some vendors would (want to!) use test-bench software to determine the level of compliance of their wares. Accreditation of (a set of?) such test beds would therefore be useful to both vendors and users. Action: Rob Smith to talk to contacts within the NHS to determine whether such a strategy was acceptable to their requirements, and respond to IST/5/-/15 convenor by 14-October. 27-May: Richard Carr to attend SWG-CA in London, 20-22 June to explain WG15 N423 "NP on Guide on Conformance Testing Methodology (UK)". (Timed out) Action: Colin O'Driscoll to submit comments on ISO 10646 to WG15 at its next meeting, October '94. (Open) 27-May: Convenor to forward Rob Smith's Paper on "Requirement for Applications Conformance Testing" (P255) to WG15 with an appropriate pre-amble to indicate that it represents IST/5/-/15 views, and that the NHS annual IT spend runs into multiple millions of pounds. (RS to forward text to DC by email). (Done: 7-Jul) 27-May: Convenor to arrange change of August meeting date to 30-Sep-94 with Lyn Jenkins, BSI, and advise IST/5/-/15 by email/post of the new date and venue. (Done: 3-Jun-94) 27-May: 9405-17 United Kingdom: Provide a national profile to RIN and WG20 or provide a progress report on 9405-15 to WG15 by the Oct/94 meeting. [This action continues. IST/5-/15 is in the process of producing a UK-English locale, and interest has been expressed in a Welsh locale. These may be developed into a full national profile at some unspecifiable future date. P259 refers. No other input being forthcoming at the meeting, P259 will be forwarded in its current state to WG15 and the US development body as a working draft for comment]. Action: Convenor to forward P259 to WG15 and to the US development body as the current WD of the UK Posix Profile. (Done: 4-Oct-94) 27-May: 9405-21 United Kingdom: Review draft 8 of 2003.2 and comment to RGCT for discussion at the Oct/94 meeting. (Open) Action: Convenor to contact Richard Carr, NCC, to establish whether they have any input to offer to the October WG15 meeting on Draft 8 of the 2003.2 document. (Done: 20-Oct-94) [No input: NCC are concentrating their efforts on the EWOS EG on CAE - Dave Rayner's group] 27-May: 9405-23 Member bodies: Comment to WG15 RIN draft position on ISO 10646 impact on POSIX standards (open action item 9310-47). [This action continues. The above action on Colin O'Driscoll refers]. (Open) Action: Convenor to contact Richard Carr, NCC, and Martin Kirk, X/Open, to establish whether they have any input to offer to the October WG15 meeting on the impact of ISO 10646 on Posix standards. (Done: 20-Oct-94) [No input: NCC are concentrating their efforts on the EWOS EG on CAE - Dave Rayner's group] 27-May: 9405-42 Member bodies: Determine the feasibility of working with CEN as documented in N444 for the registry of POSIX national profiles, locales and charmaps for discussion at the Oct/94 meeting [This action continues. The (inconclusive) discussion noted that CEN was an appropriate repository for such items, but the mechanism for establishing and maintaining a dialog between SC22/WG15 and CEN was unclear to the group. This will be revisited at this meeting of IST/5/-/15] (Open) Action: Failing other input at the September meeting, the above comment on the feasibility of working with CEN as a repository of POSIX national profiles, locales and charmaps will be passed to the October meeting of WG15. (Done: 24-Oct-94) Action: Convenor to speak to Peter Owens (RG CPA Rapporteur) for his views on how the work on the guide for National Profiles and Locales is to be structured and completed. (WG15 AI 9405-44 refers). (Done: 22-Jun-94) [Peter Owens has not yet had opportunity to read and evaluate the GNPNL document]. 27-May: DC to forward the IEEE PASC report, produced for the JNT, to the IST/5/-/15 email distribution list. (Done: 30-May) 27-May: Convenor to reply to IST/-/2's query on Posix National Profiles (P250), by a covering letter pointing to the relevant portions of P254. (Done: 3-Jun-94) P264 refers. 4. Progress of ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15: . Consideration of ISO ballots: P254,P262,P263 . Actions: DIS ballot on 9945-1/DAM 1 (Realtime Amendment) DIS ballot on 14519-1 Ada System Interface WD Modula-2 binding to Posix 9945-1 WD System Admin Part 2: Software Administration (D13) WD System Admin Part 3: User & Group Management (D8) These last two passed to Rob Smith for comment by members of the NHS. DIS 14392 LI interface to Directory Services DIS 14393 TM for LI interface to Directory Services DIS 14394 'c' binding. DIS 14395 TM for 'c' interface to Directory Services Interface documents passed to Rob Smith for comment by members of the NHS. . Status Report of SC22/WG15, . Actions: . Resolutions: There has been no WG15 activity since the meeting in May, in Japan. 5. Progress of IEEE PASC Posix WGs . Consideration of IEEE ballots: . Status Report of IEEE PASC: . Security aspects: (DF) 6. Rapporteur Groups: . Report of Verification RG ( ) . Report of Internationalisation RG (GL) P259 . Report of Profile Coordination RG (PO) 7. Liaison with other Standards Committees and Panels: . IST/5 Report: (DC) P260 . IST/-/2 Liaison: P264 . IST/5/-/14 Liaison: (DJ) 8. Any Other Business Request from IST/33 (Security Techniques) for a Posix target to receive and review papers. (BSI/Jean Stride) Action: Convenor to contact David Ferbrache and enquire whether he has an interest in IST/33 matters and would be willing to act as a conduit. (Done: 5-Oct-94) NB: THE NEXT MEETING IS SCHEDULED FOR FRIDAY, 25-NOVEMBER. IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM ATTENDING ON THAT DATE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. David Cannon Convenor, IST/5/-/15