ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 Rapporteur Group on Internationalization

Minutes of Paris Meeting, 90-06-11 - 12
Document JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N028


JC  Jean Michel Cornu  France
PD Patric Dempster Canada
DD Dominic Dunlop UK (unofficial)
AF Anne François France (observer)
JH John Hill US (observer)
JI Jim Isaak Convener, WG15
HJ Hal Jesperson US (observer)
YN Yasushi Nakahara Japan (observer)
SN Shigekatsu Nakao Japan (observer)
NS Nobuo Saito Japan
HS Hervé Schauer France (observer)
WS Wofgang Schwabl Austria (unofficial)
KS Keld Simonsen Denmark
DT Donn Terry US
HW Herman Weegenaar Netherlands
AW Arnold Winkler US (observer)
1. Opening Procedures
1.1 Welcome from host

The meeting convened at 10:00 on 90-06-11

M Claude Bourstin of Association Française de Normalisation (AFNOR) welcomed Internationalization rapporteurs and invited observers.

1.2 Introductions & roll call of rapporteurs

The Rapporteurs introduced themselves.  The names and afiliations of the internationalization rapporteurs and invited experts appear above.  A full address list appears as an attachment to this document.

1.3 Selection of chair, Secretary, Drafting

Keld Simonsen agreed to chair the meeting, Dominic Dunlop to act as secretary, and Arnold Winkler to supervise drafting, with help from Shigekatsu Nakao and Michel Cornu.

1.4 Adoption of agenda

The agenda appearing as an attachment to these minutes was adopted.

1.5 Approval of minutes

The minutes of Copenhagen meeting 90-03-05 - 07, document JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N016, were approved.

2. Status, liaison & action item reports

2.1 Action items
DD:  Write up minutes (N016), circulate by email, and forward to convener for entry into document register.
DD: Write up trems of reference, programme of work (N017), circulate by email, and forward to convener for entry inot document register.
DT: Draft report to SC22/WG15 setting out rapporteur group's findings on review of ISO-DTR 10176.
Done in Copenhagen - document JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N019
DT: Through informal channels, raise three topis within IEEE POSIX project.  (See minutes of previous meeting.)
DT: Draft questionnaire aimed at establishing suitability, shortcomings and completeness of current 9945-x internationalization features.  Circulate to group by email prior to next meeting.
Done - document JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N021
JH: Obtain copy of SC22 N231 (or corresponding JTC1 document) for entry into our records as N005.
JI: Provide group members with address information for Canadian delegate absent at this meeting.
Done at Copenhagen.  Note, however, that Canada has since delegated another rapporteur.
JI: Forward documents listed in resolution 5 under cover note to SC22/WG15.
JI: In the absence of a Rapporteur, arrange that all WG15 documents will be forwarded to this group.
JI: Create combined document corresponding to N009
KS: Set up electronic forum to canvas European opinions on and solutions to the problem of accomodation of IS 646 within the framework of POSIX.
Not done.  Carried over
KS: Set up electronic mail distribution for SC22/WG15 rapporteur group on internationalization (
Done at Copenhagen.

2.2 Reports on status of internationalization in IEEE 1003.x projects

JH reported on IEEE1003.0, the POSIX Guide.  At its July meeting in Danvers, Massachusetts, the IEEE working group is expected to endorse the internationalization materials from 1003.0, draft 7 (document WG15RIN-N026), perhaps with minor editorial changes, as part of 1003.0.  AW described the "cross-component functionality model" for internationalization detailed in this document.  The Danvers meeting is also expected to decide upon the manner in which internationalization should be handled within the IEEE POSIX project.

DT reported on IEEE 1003.1, operating system interface, and 1003.2, shell and utility application interface.  The main activity in these areas is currently balloting and the resolution of ballot comments and objections.

Rapporteurs should note that the IEEE Standards Board has renumbered two documents:

Old designation  New designation
1003.1a 1003.1 revision
1003.1b 1003.1a
Messaging is now part of (what now is) 1003.1a.  This work is not currently before WG15, but, explaining that UniForum and X/Open were likely to propose competing in high-level approaches to the problem, DT suggested that rapporteurs might like to take a position on the issue, and forward their opinions to 1003.1 for guidance.  Brief discussion revealed no strong opinions, given what was known about the proposals.  Further discussion was scheduled as agenda item 4.3.

2.3 Liaison report on SC22 working group on internationalization

JI reported that SC22 had accepted the new work item for a working group on internationalization (see JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N005) as project no. 29.  There was a single objection from Japan, which had argued that the work was not appropriate to SC22.  No WG number has been assigned as yet:  it is likely to be either WG19 or WG20, depending on the number assigned to the C++ work.  The US will provide a convener, but has yet to designate a person for the position.  As yet, no meetings are scheduled.  These issues are expected to be resolved as the London SC22 advisory group meeting of 90-10-10 - 12.

KS reported that the SC22 ad hoc advisory group on character sets had officially been formed, with Mike Ellis of the UK as its convener.  The group will meet in London on 90-10-09 - 09, and is seeking input from all SC22 working groups.

2.4 TSG1 internationalization activity

NS described internationalization as one of five activities within TSG1.  The model adopted by TSG1 for internationalization is similar to that proposed by IEEE 1003.0:  it divides the topic into three layers in each of three columns:

  Language Character Social

DD queried the manner in which WG15RIN could provide input to TSG1.  JI replied that he, the WG15 convener, was a representative on TSG1, and so could raise issues on the group's behalf.

KS raised the issue of international standardized profiles, also a topic for consideration by TSG1, and which, JI pointed out, was by now almost frozen.  No rapporteur had any comment on the matter requiring forwarding to TSG1.

3.  Balloting activities

3.1 9945-1 ballot internationalization issues

Discussion on this agenda item centred on internationalization issues in JTC1/SC22/WG15-N093 though N095, comments on DIS 9945-1.2 from the US, Canada, and Japan; and on N097, the Danish profile for DIS 9945-1.  France, the Netherlands, the UK and the US had no comments relating specifically to internationalization.  After detailed consideration of the comments raised in the documents, a number of resolutions resulted.  (See JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N027r.)

The meeting adjourned at 18:00 on 90-06-11, and reconvened at 08:45 on 90-06-12.

3.2 9945-2 ballot internationalization issues

Documents JTC1/SC22/N768, Canadian comments on DP 9945-2, and JTC1/SC22/WG15-N089 through N092 (various documents from DS) were considered.  Again, a number of resolutions resulted after prolonged discussion.

4.  New business

4.1 Internationalization questionnaire

There being little time remaining before the scheduled close of the meeting, it was agreed to defer discussion of this topic until the next meeting of the rapporteur group.  Rapporteurs are encouraged to review the draft questionnaire, JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N021, and to discuss it by electronic mail on the mail list ( or, whare appropriate, with DT (

4.2 Profiles and locales

KS led a discussion of JTC1/SC22/WG15-N091 Danish comments on POSIX.2 locale definition, and JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N023, A European Representation for ISO C.  DT introduced JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N025, Draft proposed multi-byte support extension of ANSI C.  A number of resolutions and actions resulted.

An outstanding issue is that of how to handle (for example) the conversion to upper-case of the German sharp-s, ß, where a single lower-case character maps to two upper-case characters on conversion.  Current mechanisms and proposals do not allow this.  New proposals are sought.

4.3 Messaging

DT outlined the two conflicting proposals likely to be before 1003.1 at its July meeting.  The UniForum scheme keys each message using a triple consisting of LANG, domain and default message, all of which are string-valued.  The X/Open method uses a triple of LANG, an openable entity known as a message catalogue, and a numeric message identifier.  Conceptually the schemes are quite similar, but considerable differences arise in programmatic usage.

The rapporteur group was asked if it wished to give any guidance to 1003.1 in deciding between the alternatives.  Arguments were put forward in favour of each alternative, but no concensus or strong feelings were apparent, so no guidance was forwarded to the IEEE from the meeting.

4.4 "UNIX" versus DP 10646

Shortage of time precluded discussion of this item, a consideration of the impact of DP 10646, Multi-octet coded character set, on existing implementationsof the UNIX operating system.

4.5 TSG1 activities

There was no further discussion beyond that minuted in § 2.4 above.

4.6 Canadian clarifications on JTC1/SC22/WG15-N094, Canadian comments on DIS 9945-1.2

This issue, concerning the term "portable character set" in JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N094, was resolved during the consideration minuted in §3.1 above.

5.  Review and approval of resolutions

Twenty-four resolutions were approved, and appear in document JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N027R.  In connection with resolution 8, which proposes replacement of the "Poz" profile annex in 9945-1 with a Danish profile, the Japanese rapporteur was uneasy with the use of a real country as an example.  The group agreed that it must be made clear that the annex showed merely a typical example of a profile, into which nothing additional should be read.  DT expressed the opinion that the provision of an example at this stage was intended to accelerate convergence on an accepted methodology for the production of national profiles.  Once such methodology had been defined, the example would no longer be needed.

5.1 Recommendations for WG15

The recommendations of the rapporteur group on the disposition of internationalization-related comments received to date on the ballot of DIS 9945-1, and on DP 9945-2 were forwarded to WG15 by way of resolutions and through rapporteurs attending the break-out groups on these topics at teh WG15 meeting of 90-06-12 - 15.

6.  Closing procedures

6.1 Future meeting considerations -- requests for invitations

The proposed next meeting date of 90-10-22 - 23 in Seattle, immediately prior to the next meeting of JTC1/SC22/WG15, was rejected due to the clash with the Autumn conference and executive meeting of EUUG, which several rapporteurs must attend.  Instead, it was agreed to meet 90-10-04 - 05 in London.  In addition, the group may meet briefly on 90-10-22 in Seattle if necessary.

No further meetings were scheduled.

6.2 Document number assignment

Document numbers JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N020 through N028 were assigned.  See JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N000R.  Resolutions 18, 19 and 24 require that documents JTC1/SC22/WG15RIN-N022, N023 and N025 are forwarded to JTC1/SC22/WG15.

6.3 Review of Action Items

Action items agreed as a result of the meeting are as follows:
DD:  Write up minutes (WG15RIN-N028), circulate by email, and forward to convener for entry into document register.
KS: (Carried over.)  Set up electronic forum to canvas European opinions on and solutions to the problem of accommodation of IS 646 within the framework of POSIX.
KS: Work up point 10 from JTC1/SC22/WG15-N091, Danish national POSIX.2 locale definition, into a full proposal for evaluation by group.
All: Review SC22/WG15RIN-N021, draft questionnaire, and respond, by electronic mail if possible, to DT.

6.4 Thanks to host

Keld Simonsen thanked AFNOR for hosting the meeting.

7. Adjournment

The meeting adjourned at 12:30

RIN Agenda
Meeting of 90-06-11 - 12, Paris
Attachment to Minutes

1.  Opening procedures 1
     1.1 Welcome from host 1
     1.2 Introductions & roll call of rapporteurs 1
     1.3 Selection of chair, Secretary, Drafting 1
     1.4 Adoption of agenda 1
     1.5 Approval of minutes 1
2.  Status, liaison & action item reports 1
     2.1 Action items 1
     2.2 Reports on status of internationalization in IEEE 1003.x projects 2
     2.3 Liaison report on SC22 working group on internationalization 3
     2.4 TSG1 internationalization activity 3
3.  Balloting activities 3
     3.1 9945-1 ballot internationalization issues 3
     3.2 9945-2 ballot internationalization issues 3
4.  New business 4
     4.1 Internationalization questionnaire 4
     4.2 Profiles and locales 4
     4.3 Messaging 4
     4.4 "UNIX" versus DP 10646 4
     4.5 TSG1 activities 4
     4.6 Canadian clarifications on JTC1/SC22/WG15-N094, Canadian comments on DIS 9945-1.2 4
5.  Review and approval of resolutions 4
     5.1 Recommendations for WG15 4
6.  Closing procedures 5
     6.1 Future meeting considerations -- requests for invitations 5
     6.2 Document number assignment 5
     6.3 Review of Action Items 5
     6.4 Thanks to host 5
7. Adjournment 5