SC22/WG15 RIN N139 Draft Minutes ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 RIN Rapporteur Group on Internationalization 1994-10-24/26 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 RIN: POSIX Rapporteur Group on Internationalization Date Monday 24 October 1994 09:00 - 17:00 Tuesday 25 October 1994 09:00 - 17:00 Location: Whistler Convention Center, Whistler, BC Canada Host Contact: +1 604 932 4155 RIN Email list SC22WG15RIN@dkuug.dk 1. Opening of meeting Mr. Simonsen opened the meeting at 0900. He welcomed the members to Whistler, BC, Canada. 1.1 Selection of Chair, Secretary & Drafting Committee Chair Keld Simonsen Secretary: John L. Hill Drafting Committee: George Kriger, Nobuo Saito, Dave Cannon 1.2 Introductions and Roll for call of rapporteurs Keld Simonsen: Denmark George Kriger Canada John L. Hill USA Nobuo Saito Japan Dave Cannon UK (Tuesday, Wednesday) 1.3 Temporary and permanent document number assignment POSIX National Profile (Japan) N131 Liaison Statement from SC22/WG20 to SC22/WG15 (SC22/WG20 N321) N132 Use of ISO 10646 in POSIX Interfaces N133 Organizational Guide for POSIX National Profiles N134 Response from NNI on Action Items N135 1.4 Adoption of Agenda and allocation of documents on Agenda (N126) The following documents were added to the referenced agenda items and the agenda was approved. Mr. Simonsen distributed these documents during the meeting. 3.2.1 N131, N134, N135 3.6 N132 3.4 N133 1.5 Approval of minutes (N123) The minutes were approved unanimously without modification. 1.6 Administrative issues Mr. Simonsen noted that the membership in RIN seems to be changing as people seem to be attending RIN. There was discussion of the possible causes for this. Mr. Simonsen noted JTC1 and SC22 are considering broadening their use of IT. He suggested RIN distribute all its documents electronically as well as in hard copy. RIN approved a recommendation, from Mr. Kriger, to discontinue its practice of renumbering action items each meeting. 2. Action Item Reports (N123) 9405-01-MB's: (9310-02)Canada CHARID results; leave OPEN on all national bodies CLOSED Mr. Kriger noted that unless there was any written response, the item should remain open. The US noted this is on the SC22/WG15 agenda. 9405-02-MB's: (9310-03) Provide comments back on SC22/WG15 N461 prior to next RIN meeting CLOSED Mr. Simonsen noted Denmark has contributed several texts on this and asked how to have it put into the document. The US noted this is on the SC22/WG15 agenda. 9405-03-Lead Rapporteur: (9310-04) notify RIN and RGCPA of Japanese National Profile CLOSED by Email message. 9405-04- MB's (9310-08) review of N110, SC22/WG20 frameworks document, prepare to receive PDTR in July time frame and provide comment back prior to October meeting. OPEN: The PDTR is RIN N136 (PDTR 11017) 9405-05 Member Bodies to review N105 (Japanese comments on .1a), N106 (Japanese comments on .2b), N109 (SC22/WG20 guidelines for the use of extended identifiers in programming languages), N113 (CEN standard for string ordering) for determination of appropriate action prior to Oct. Meeting OPEN: Prof. Saito noted they are preparing a Japanese standard for character ordering. 9405-06 US to provide 1003.2b/D10 to RIN Lead Rapporteur. RIN Lead Rapporteur to distribute the document to RIN rapporteurs. MB's to provide feedback on I18N issues identified in May 94 agenda item 3.1 prior to Oct. meeting. Part 1: CLOSED: The document was received at the beginning on 1994-10-24. Part 2: OPEN Part 3: OPEN 9405-07 Lead Rapporteur to report current status of SC22/WG20 Framework review to SC22/WG15 at May 94 meeting. CLOSED 9405-08 Lead Rapporteur to prepare preliminary report on 10646 as basis for Oct. 94 report to SC22/WG15, distribute along with X/Open related document and other related materials to RIN by June 1, 1994. CLOSED: The document is N133 9405-09 MB's to review CEN repertoire (charsymb) map mechanism RIN N108, provide comments back to RIN prior to October 94 meeting. CLOSED: see US action item report to SC22/WG15 N515 9405-10 MB's to review and comment on N461 (working draft of Guideline on NP & Locales) please provide feedback to RIN prior to the next meeting. CLOSED: see US action item report to SC22/WG15 N515 9405-11 MB's to review draft of 1003.1a for I18N issues and report back to RIN for next meeting (watch for distribution of draft via SC22/WG15 mailing) OPEN: Mr. Hill noted the US response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-07 is a partial response. 9405-12 Lead Rapporteur to forward Email to RIN with SC22 Chair report on JTC1 meeting (re. CEN, etc.) CLOSED 9405-13 MB's (9310-05) provide feedback on RIN N108 (CEN registry document) (or a revision which maybe provided by the Lead Rapporteur by July), with respect to registration issues and useability to SC22/WG15. CLOSED: Mr. Hill noted a partial reply is included in the US response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-42 3. Business 3.1 I18N in POSIX.2b (D10 expected) Not addressed. The document was received 1994-10-24, the first day of this meeting. 3.1.1 extended identifiers Not addressed. 3.1.2 localedef is_wctype() Not addressed. 3.1.3 localedef user-specified collation weight names Not addressed. 3.1.4 localedef "substitute" Not addressed. 3.1.5 localedef "reorder-after" (N127) Not addressed. 3.1.6 removal of NUL special handling Not addressed. 3.1.7 full support for state-dependent charsets Not addressed. 3.1.8 charmap-based charset conversion Not addressed. 3.1.9 "file" user-specified recognition algorithm Not addressed. 3.1.10 "pax" extended character set support Not addressed. 3.1.11 C MSE widechar support Not addressed. 3.1.12 Invariant ISO 646 support (KS) Not addressed. 3.1.13 Charsymb/CHARIDs (N119, N127) There was discussion over conflicting proposals (conflicting to a minor extent) presented by Mr. Kriger and Mr. Simonsen. Mr. Kriger noted he believes the US-proposed changes will not be upwardly compatible. Mr. Simonsen explained why they would. Mr. Hill noted the US noted its response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-55 is relevant. Mr. Hill noted the US expects substantive discussion of this item to take place in SC22/WG15. 3.1.14 Regexps Not addressed. 3.2 National profiles and locales See below. 3.2.1 Guide for National Profiles and locales (N121, N131, N134, N135) Mr. Simonsen noted there are two issues: managerial and the document itself. RIN discussed N131 in detail. Prof. Saito requested RIN consider drafting SC22/WG15+s response to the Netherlands. Prof. Saito noted that the liaison statement from the SGFS raises three difficulties: use of the term +POSIX national profile+ (there is no compatibility if each country defines its own), Prof. Saito urged RIN to forward to SC22/WG20 a liaison statement containing a request that SC22/WG15 and SC22/WG20, SC22/WG15, SGFS, and representatives of the regional workshops to discuss topics concerning POSIX national profiles. The purpose would be to harmonize ISP requirements with requirements for national profiles. Mr. Hill suggested RIN invite Mr. Willem Wakker, SGFS chair, to attend the next RIN meeting. Mr. Hill agreed to act as editor for the development by RIN of a proposed revision to SC22/WG15 N387R. RIN addressed the comments from NNI contained in the NNI response to SC22/WG15 May 2994 action items. See document RIN N135 (= TT01). RIN believes the change in title addresses NNI comment one. RIN agrees with the direction of not reproducing TR 10000 in the text of the proposed guidelines. NNI comment two will be addressed in the guidelines. RIN addressed SC22/WG15 N503 (SGFS comments) considering its recommendations. Items 3 and 4 will be incorporated in the text of the guidelines. The change in title addresses item 5. Items 1, 2, 6 and 7 are not in dispute. RIN addressed comments provided by the UK. Mr. Cannon explained the UK point of view. UK concerns focus primarily on the means by which the work will be done. RIN addressed comments brought forth by those present. With regards to the managerial issues of this proposed project, Mr. Hill noted the response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-44 (see SC22/WG15 N515) addresses the matter of how the work of this project could be accomplished. There was discussion about the options the US presented. Mr. Simonsen noted the Danish view point on the managerial aspects of this topics is in SC22/WG15 N521, proposing the work be completed within SC22/WG15. There was much discussion about this proposal. RIN agreed to propose to SC22/WG15 approval of a resolution that SC22 distribute the revision to N387R for consultative letter ballot. RIN agreed to propose to SC22/WG15 how the work should be done. Action Item: Prof. Saito to provide the Guide for POSIX National Profiles and POSIX Locales (SC22/WG15 N461). 3.2.2 National Profiles and locales: JP, CA, DK, GB Mr. Cannon reported they are developing a profile. They reported no anticipated completion date. Mr. Kriger noted there has been activity in Canada to develop a set of national locales. Drafts are close to being complete. Mr. Simonsen reported he has already delivered the Danish locales to SC22/WG15 RIN. Prof. Saito reported Japan has already sent its profile to SC22/WG15 RIN. 3.2.3 SC22/WG15 collection of profiles, locales and charmaps (N125) Mr. Simonsen reported the collection will be reported to SC22/WG15 at the next SC22/WG15 meeting. 3.2.4 CEN registry (N127) Mr. Cannon reported it was unclear how SC22/WG15 could work with CEN and ensure the registered entities were accurate and complete. Mr. Simonsen noted this is entirely in the hands of the national member bodies. He also explained that only national member bodies can contribute to the registry on their territory and control that information. Mr. Hill noted the US response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-42, contained in SC22/WG15 N515, addresses this. 3.3 Report on character/byte terms Not addressed. 3.4 10646 guidance (N133) This agenda item is to prepare the RIN response to SC22/WG15 action items 9405-22 and 9405-23 (formerly 9310-47). Mr. Hill noted the SC22/WG15 members+ ability to complete 9405-23 depends upon RIN+s providing a recommendation responding to 9405-22. Mr. Simonsen noted the focus of N133 is the use of UTF-8 (also known as FSS-UTF) together. Mr. Simonsen noted the use of UTF-8 would apply in five uses: file storage (i.e., content), file naming (affecting OPENs, CLOSEs, etc.), communications, internal processing, interprocess communication. Mr. Kriger noted the five uses (the areas of use) proposed for UTF-8 are not fully addressed in N133. Mr. Hill noted this recommendation contained in N133 is consistent with actions taken in SC22 in 1993. Mr. Simonsen to draft a revision of N133 taking account of the items below. Concerning the outline of the revised paper: RIN agreed to modify N133 (to incorporate changes suggested by Mr. Kriger concerning the uses of UTF-8, scoping, open systems framework, and justification for the use in POSIX of 10646) and recommend to SC22/WG15 that SC22/WG15 distribute the revision to its members for comment. 3.5 SC22/WG20 framework review PDTR 11017 (N110, N129) RIN reviewed the PDTR. Prof. Saito noted Ada assumes the use of UCS-4 and that character independence is preferred. Prof. Saito noted RIN might want to sponsor a SC22/WG15 resolution urging SC22/WG20 to accelerate its work on the framework. Mr. Simonsen suggested a statement be included in the SC22/WG15 liaison statement to SC22/WG20 stating that the framework document has been reviewed, and that SC22/WG15 has no specific comments at this time. 3.6 SC22/WG20 liaison statements (N118 (SC22/WG15 N466), SC22/WG15 AI 9405-37, N132) The SC22/WG15 liaison report concerning SC22/WG20+s intent to have its work on cultural conventions retain the requirements of SC22/WG15 as a proper subset. There was discussion, initiated by Mr. Kriger, and contributed to by Prof. Saito, as to the report+s intent in its use of the term +replace+. Mr. Simonsen clarified this. Mr. Kriger to draft a SC22/WG15 liaison statement to SC22/WG20 reflecting what is stated below. RIN agreed that RIN+s main activities on cultural conventions focus on supporting the work of SC22/WG20. The intent of this support is to ensure that the work product of SC22/WG20 satisfy SC22/WG15+s requirements. RIN recognizes that there may have to be some work it does to incorporate into POSIX those internationalization features arising from the adoption of P1003.2b as a PDAM, and potentially others. 3.7 .0 issues (N116) Not addressed. 3.8 .7 issues Not addressed. 3.9 .1 issues (.1a, .1c/.4a) Not addressed. 3.10 Review of ToR & PoW (N122) Not addressed. 4. Liaison reports See below. 4.1 Report on I18N IEEE 1003.x status (AB) Not addressed. 4.2 Liaison reports: SGFS, SC22, SC22/WG20, SC22/WG14, SC22/WG21, CEN TC304 (KS) Not addressed. 4.3 UniForum and X/Open Joint Internationalization Group Not addressed. 4.4 X/Open I18N Not addressed. 4.5 Other I18N activity Not addressed. 5. Review/approval of Resolutions, Action Items and issues list See Attachments 1 and 2. 5.1 Permanent Document number assignment The following permanent documents numbers were assigned during the meeting: N136 SC22/WG20 N227R PDTR 11017 framework and requirements for internationalization N137 P1003.2b Draft 10 N138 DS Report on SC22/WG15 RIN Action Items N139 Draft Minutes: SC22/WG15 RIN October 1994 N140 Draft SC22/WG15 Liaison Statement to SC22/WG20 on Cultural Conventions N141 Draft Revision to NP proposal for POSIX National Profiles and Locales (draft revision of SC22/WG15 N387R) 5.2 Recommendations for SC22/WG15 Refer to the resolutions in Attachment 2. RIN unanimously approved all resolutions except 9410-04 which was approved 4-0-1. 6. Closing Procedures See below. 6.1 Future meeting considerations -- agenda, request for invitations Not addressed. 6.2 Thanks to host Refer to the resolutions in Attachment 2. 6.3 Adjournment The meeting was adjourned at 3:05 PM 10/25/94. An additional session took place 0800-0900 1994-10-26 in which the contributions and resolutions were reviewed. Attachment 1 Action Items SC22/WG15 RIN October, 1994 Carried Over: 9405-04- MB's (9310-08) review of N136 (PDTR 11017), SC22/WG20 framework document. 10/94: OPEN the PDTR is RIN N129 (PDTR 11017) 9405-05 Member Bodies to review N105 (Japanese comments on .1a), N106 (Japanese comments on .2b), N109 (SC22/WG20 guidelines for the use of extended identifiers in programming languages), N113 (CEN standard for string ordering) for determination of appropriate action prior to Oct. Meeting 10/94: OPEN: Prof. Saito noted they are preparing a Japanese standard for character ordering. 9405-06 US to provide 1003.2b/D10 to RIN Lead Rapporteur. RIN Lead Rapporteur to distribute the document to RIN rapporteurs. MB's to provide feedback on I18N issues identified in May 94 agenda item 3.1 prior to Oct. meeting. 10/94: Part 1: CLOSED: The document was received at the beginning on 1994-10-24. Part 2: OPEN Part 3: OPEN 9405-11 MB's to review draft of 1003.1a for I18N issues and report back to RIN for next meeting (watch for distribution of draft via SC22/WG15 mailing) 10/94: OPEN: Mr. Hill noted the US response to SC22/WG15 action item 9405-07 is a partial response. New: 9410-01 Mr. Simonsen to draft a revision to N133 for the purpose of incorporating explanatory information. See 9410 RIN minutes section 3.4. 9410-02 Prof. Saito to provide, in troff format via Email to SC22/WG15 RIN, the current version of the draft Guide for POSIX National Profiles and National Locales (SC22/WG15 N461) Attachment 2 Resolutions SC22/WG15 RIN October, 1994 Resolution 9410-01 -- SC22/WG15 Response to SC22/WG20 Liaison Statement on Cultural Conventions SC22/WG15 RIN resolves to propose to SC22/WG15 that SC22/WG15 approve the following resolution: +SC22/WG15 Acknowledges receipt of the SC22/WG20 liaison statement on cultural conventions contained in SC22/WG20 N270 (SC22/WG15 N466),and Instructs its liaison to SC22/WG20 to forward SC22/WG15 WT01 (SC22/WG15 RIN N140) as a liaison statement to SC22/WG20.+ Resolution 9410-02 -- Use of Email SC22/WG15 RIN Recognizes the value of extending its use of Email in doing its work, and Agrees to distribute SC22/WG15 RIN documents whenever practicable via Email as well as on paper. Resolution 9410-03 -- Adoption of a Revision to the Proposed NP on POSIX National Profiles and Locales (SC22/WG15 N387R) SC22/WG15 RIN resolves to propose to SC22/WG15 that SC22/WG15 approve the following resolution: +Whereas: SC22 approved Resolution B at its 1994 meeting instructing SC22/WG15 to develop a revision of the proposed NP for POSIX national profiles and locales (reference SC22 N1625, SC22/WG15 N387R), and, RIN took the initiative to develop a proposed revision on behalf of SC22/WG15 Therefore, SC22/WG15 approves document SC22/WG15 N387R2 as its revision of the proposed NP for POSIX national profiles and locales, and SC22/WG15 instructs its convener to forward to the SC22 Secretariat, SC22/WG15 N387R2, together with appropriately modified +front matter+ for distribution as a consultative letter ballot.+ Resolution 9410-04 -- Development of the +Guide for the Development of Profiles for POSIX Localization and POSIX Locales+ SC22/WG15 RIN resolves to propose to SC22/WG15 that SC22/WG15 approve the following resolution: +SC22/WG15 recommends that the +Guide for the Development of Profiles for POSIX Localization and POSIX Locales+ be developed in the following manner: o A Member Body to submit a Project Authorization Request (PAR) to IEEE/PASC to establish a project, and o The working group to consist of members from SC22/WG15 and IEEE/ PASC, and o The work on the project to be accomplished via: 1) Email, and 2) During the WG15/IEEE coordinating meeting (i.e., those SC22/WG15 meetings which follow the IEEE meetings).+ Resolution 9410-05 -- Thanks to Host SC22/WG15 RIN thanks the following for their assistance in allowing this meeting to take place: o Mr. Arnold Powell for coordinating the arrangements, and o Mr. Patric Dempster, and o Mr. David Blackwood, and o Mr. George Kriger.