From D.Cannon@exeter.ac.uk Mon Oct 30 16:43:02 1995 Received: from hermes (hermes.ex.ac.uk [144.173.6.14]) by dkuug.dk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id QAA13350 for ; Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:42:37 +0100 From: D.Cannon@exeter.ac.uk Received: from cen by hermes via ESMTP (PAA03385); Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:43:56 GMT Message-Id: <23419.199510301514@cen> Subject: RIN Minutes, Resolutions & Actions: Orlando 26/27-Oct To: wg15rin@dkuug.dk (WG15 RIN) Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:14:07 +0000 (GMT) Acknowledge-to: D.Cannon@Exeter.ac.uk X-Organisation: University of Exeter, IT Services X-Disclaimer: The following is a personal statement and does not reflect University of Exeter policy or agreement. X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 25374 Hi all, please find attached RIN N154R, the slightly amended minutes from the meeting last week. The amendments include: . improvement to some of the wording in the original . full set of Resolutions . full set of Actions Please advise me ASAP if you find any errors in the attached - email to the WG15RIN reflector would probably be best so that everyone can see & note your proposed changes. Cheers, Dave ________________________Minutes follow________________________ ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 N___ ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 RIN N154r Draft Minutes WG15RIN meeting number 13 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC22/WG15 RIN: POSIX Rapporteur Group on Internationalization Date: Thursday 26 October 1995 09:00 - 17:00 Friday 27 October 1995 08:00 - 12:00 Location: Stouffer Renaissance Orlando Resort, Orlando, Florida Host Contact: Barry Needham RIN Email list: SC22WG15RIN@dkuug.dk 1. Opening of Meeting 1.1 Selection of Chair, Secretary & Drafting committee Chair: Keld Simonsen Sec: David Cannon Drafting Cttee: Barry Needham, David Blackwood 1.2 Introduction and Rollcall of rapporteurs Keld Simonsen Dk David Cannon UK Barry Needham USA David Blackwood Ca Yoichi Suehiro J Herman Weegenaar Nl 9510-01 KS: Canada requested that its National Reflector address be used instead of the named person on the RIN email reflector. 1.3 Temporary and permanent document number assignments SD-3 Issues List N152 Cover letter for distributed docs N153 WG15 N606: RIN report to WG15 N154 RIN Minutes, Orlando, 26/27 October N155 RIN Meeting notice & Agenda, Meeting #14, May 96 N156 WG15 N595: User req. Study and Prog for Stds in Char set Techniques N157 WG15 N607: Report of CEN TC 304 activities N158 WG15 N602: Japan's AI report to WG15 N159 WG15 N586: Overview of Dk input to .2b N160 WG15 N605: Danish additional comments to .2b N161 WG15 N608: WG20 Liaison report N162 WG15 N598: UK Action Item report to WG15 N163 WG15 N621: UK comments on 10646 integration N164 RIN Terms of Reference and Programme of Work 1.4 Adoption of Agenda and allocation of documents on Agenda [N151] Documents were posted as noted against each item. 1.5 Approval of minutes [N148] The minutes were approved as presented. Canada queried how George Kriger was actioned when he wasn't present. Patric Dempster volunteered him. 1.6 Administrative issues [N153] RIN is to meet in WG15 plenary on Tuesday for one day, then possibly for one day on Friday, of the meeting in May 1996. 2. Action item Reports [N148] 9505-01 WG20 Liaison statement for addressing WG20 comments to N113 to be generated by WG20 liaison. WG20 document goes to CD registration and ballot in the near future; WG20 was asked to register requests more formally, and that has been done. 9505-02 Creation of an issues list moving section 3.1.x to this list and then closing all items addressed via annex h 1003.2 The Issues list has now been created in outline, and forms a major item of this RIN meeting. Done. 9505-03 Member bodies need to take N558 back for comments and review by member bodies for report back to WG15. Review and comment on N558: There were no Member Body responses. KS attended IEEE PASC and resolved a number of issues with the .2b group. The US was actioned by WG15 Plenary to take this document back and re-review it internally. Japan has no specific comment, but has comments on the .2b draft. KS indicated that: . Re the repertoire format, .2b is in broad agreement. . Re comments at the end of lines, .2b agreed. . Re localedef, repertoiremaps were agreed to be useful by the .2b group, but if they were implementation defined then they saw no need for it. . Re EBCDIC, .2b saw no problem with existing practice. . Re reorder-after, .2b felt that awk scripts could handle it, and there was therefore no requirement to standardise it. There was discussion on the version of .2b to be sent out for CD registration. Draft 11 will be issued in ISO, while the .2b group is currently preparing Draft 12. 3. Business 3.1 I18N in POSIX 2b [SD-3 N137 N149 N150 N158 N159 N160 N162] Actions from WG15: WG15 9510-19: Attempt to close as many issues as possible and approve the RIN Issues list. There was some debate on procedure. WG15 runs RIN as a sub-group. BN suggested that WG15 would be interested in status of Open Issues (the first page containing Keywords, Description, Originator, Alternatives, Documents, Resolution and Status), and the full resume of every Closed Issue. RIN was in violent agreement on this proposed process. There was a proposal to extend the Issue List with other problems facing RIN, not just those concerning .2b. This was unanimously agreed. The header to the Issues list to be modified to reflect this mode of operation. Categories of Status were discussed at length. It was agreed to continue to use just two categories, Open and Closed, with the meanings as defined at the start of SD-3. The discussion of SD-3 commenced: DC was volunteered to update the Issues list in so far as these minutes require it. KS volunteered to assist. Re 0. Extended Identifiers in 1003.2b [Closed] There was debate on whether the US response to accept the proposal in N420 was appropriate; however the response WAS positive, the Issue is closed. There is an outstanding problem in that .2b D11 has removed the placeholder for this item. The response to WG15 should indicate that .2b should take N420 on board. [Paragraph at the end of SD-3 P5 to be removed which refers to N416] Re 1. localedef is_wctype() [Closed] Japan indicated that .2b includes appropriate support for iswctype(). The Issue is closed. There is a remaining open issue which Japan has referring to 'Localedef to wctrans()'. Re 2. localedef user-specified collation weight names [Open] N158 includes new input to this item; Japan is still working on this item; solution to some of the problems are not yet obvious. Japan needs discussion of their paper to help them go forward. It was proposed to discuss N158 later in the agenda. Re 3. localedef "substitute" [Closed] Denmark indicated that the problem was not a simple one, and that various other MBs would need it, if only they thought about it for a while. HW said he would go back to check what was required by the Netherlands. 9510-02 HW to check on requirement for 'substitute' by the Netherlands. DB said that while this was required in telephone book sorting in Canadian English, this was an application issue, not an API one. KS disagreed; there should be API support at this level to prevent repetition of this functionality within multiple applications, with the possibility of them differing. DC indicated that the UK felt this could be supported by other means than the API. RIN has identified no widespread need for the functionality. UK, US, Canada and Japan do not need it. Netherlands are checking. The Issue is closed. Re 4. localedef "reorder-after" [Closed] Canada indicated that this functionality is not required. KS indicated that this is a major building-block for WG20 work: he went on to outline the mechanism for the proposal. HW proposed that the Issue be recorded as Closed. DC pointed out that RIN (at Reading) had already closed the Issue. The consensus was that the Issue is Closed. 9510-03 Canada to check its view of the status of the 'reorder-after' Issue at the request of Denmark, and to report back to the next WG15 meeting. Re 5. removal of NUL special handling. [Closed] Minor mods to the Resolution and Status, otherwise agreed as it stands. Re 6. full support for state-dependent charsets [Open] Japan have indicated that they do not wish to pursue this Issue in very recent email. Denmark indicated that it wishes to pick up the problem and attempt to resolve it. UK has no objection. Canada proposed applying a time limit on holding the issue open - if no input is forthcoming within 6 months RIN will close the Issue; this was agreed. 9510-04 Dk to supply an input paper to Issue 6 within 6 months or the Issue will be closed. Re 7. charmap-based charset conversion [Closed] KS reported from his discussions with the .2 group that this work was in process of being added to the draft. The Issue is Closed. Re 8. "file" user-specified recognition algorithm [Closed] Accepted as presented. Re 9. "pax" extended character set support [Closed] Canada indicated that it was satisfied with the text as presented in 1003.2b D11. The meeting agreed that the Issue is Closed. Re 10. C MSE widechar support [Open] This Issue was originated by Japan. The C MSE amendment is now a full international standard; it should be supported by 9945-1. 9510-05 Japan to check if the reference to IS 9899:1995 would satisfy their requirements for MSE support in 9945-1, and to report their findings back to WG15. 9510-06 KS to investigate the possibility of having the latest versions of the 9945-1 standard reference the 9899:1995 C standard, including the MSE addendum. KS indicated that their were other issues than the API to be considered here, and these would be raised later in the meeting... Re 11. Invariant ISO 646 support [Closed] KS visited the IEEE meeting last week[!] and discussed this issue with the .2 group: a number of ways of solving the problem were discussed. One possible solution was a 'kind of' input method - these are not currently on the POSIX program of work. Dk indicated it would be offering input to the 1003.2b CD Draft 11 ballot. Re 12. charsymb/CHARIDS [Closed] Canada expects that 1003.2b Draft 11 will resolve the Issue. Denmark expects that their concerns will be addressed in Draft 12, following their discussions with the IEEE group. Re 13. regexps [Closed] KS's discussions at IEEE last week indicate that a new PAR will be forthcoming to address internationalisation issues in regular expressions. It is accepted by the development body that there are problems with the existing specification. BN said that the US TAG looked at this in some detail. It is the area which receives most interpretation requests. The .2 group does not currently have sufficient expertise to handle the existing problems, together with known internationalisation problems. It is not anticipated that these problems can be solved in the current work on .2b 9510-07 Lead Rapporteur to investigate the availability of expertise to apply to the problem of regular expressions within 1003.2x and to report back to WG15 at its October 1996 meeting. Re 14. Canadian collation weight minimum levels [Closed] KS solved this one at the IEEE meeting!! The IEEE accepted the Canadian proposal for 7 collation weights. [N137] 1003.2b D10 was noted. [N149] WG15 N515 US Action Item Report. Nothing new. [N150] Action Item report from DS, 1995-05-07 Much of this was discussed earlier, however: Re AI 9410-27 point 8: Denmark wishes to reference the CEN registry in 1003.2b. US does not believe that this issue has been assigned to RIN and does not wish discussion on this issue here. Canada concurs with the US and, further, opposes the reference to the CEN registry in 1003.2b. Netherlands prefers this should not be discussed in RIN, which should be reserved for technical debate. Japan supports the US position. UK proposes a RIN resolution seeking clarification and direction from WG15 as regards the proper place to discuss the CEN cultural registry. This was approved. [N158] WG15 N602: Japan's AI report to WG15 The problems raised in the report were covered in the debate on Issues 2 and 6. 9510-08 Rapporteurs to review and respond to the parts of N158 which address the LC_COLLATE proposal, with specific attention to whether it can be resolved by changes only to the localedef specification, or whether changes to the API are required in order to handle the proposed localedef extension. KS and YS held a lengthy discussion on detail of the proposal, leading to the suggestion that extension of the API was not a preferred option. 9510-09 Add the section on LC_COLLATE in N158 into the Issues list. YS introduced a new Issue proposing an LC_CTYPE extension for locale-specific character mapping. Dk indicated that it was also interested in solving these problems - for example the translation of slashed-o to either o-umlaut or o, depending on what was available. 9510-10 Rapporteurs to review and respond to the Japanese proposal for LC_CTYPE extension for locale-specific character mapping in N158. 9510-11 Add the Japanese proposal for LC_CTYPE extension for locale- specific character mapping to the Issues list as Issue 15. *****deleted***** ....-.. Add Issue .. re Dk concerns with the COPY statement - is this source or binary? (Ref Pp 18 of the existing Issues list). *****deleted***** Debate on revisiting the Issues list decided to remove the above as an Issue for the time being, reinstating it if the response from 9510-12 fails to resolve the problem. 9510-12 US to request clarification on the COPY issue from the US development body dealing with .2b and report back to RIN. [N159] WG15 N586: Overview of Dk input to .2b Mostly already covered, except... 9510-13 Character concepts in POSIX [N441] to be added to the issues list as Issue 16. [It is believed that the Japanese MB has submitted further papers on this subject, eg WG15 N372 - these to be added to the history of this Issue] [N160] WG15 N605: Danish additional comments to .2b KS talked to N160, which is the set of Danish DIS comments to 1003.2b Draft 11. The IEEE DB is looking at symbolic ellipses with both hex and decimal encodings. KS believes that his recent discussions with the IEEE DB have resolved outstanding problems and that the proposal for symbolic ellipses will be taken up. The WIDTH... statements introduced in D11 DS believes are misplaced, and should be in the locale definition, not a property of the encoding. Japan is unsure that the DS assertion is correct, and needs time to consider it. This sounds like an Issue. 9510-14 Action on US, Denmark and Japan to consider the proposal in N160 re the WIDTH... statements, with attention to whether WIDTH... should be handled in the locale as in the N160 proposal, or as represented in 1003.2b D11. 9510-15 Add Issue 17 to describe the DS perceived problem with range expressions in .2b D11. N160 2.8 o 5 refers. N160 4.35 o 6 refers to repertoiremap files and could usefully be added to the appropriate place in SD-3. N160 also proposes that POSIX standards should be able to reference items in the CEN registry. [N162] WG15 N598: UK Action Item report to WG15. D11 of 1003.2b removes a set of placeholders for Japanese and Danish input. The UK is curious as to whether Dk and Japan are happy about this. Japan and Denmark are not happy, but believe that their recent input documents are adequate to reopen the placeholders which still concern them. 3.2 Guide to National profiles and locales No debate. 3.3 National profiles and locales 3.3.1 National profiles and locales: JP, CA, DK, GB, NL Japan indicated that work had not progressed for two years, but that interest was reviving on the Japanese National Profile, and a revision may be produced in the near future, to be appended to the Japanese 9945-2 standard in place of the Danish example, which is relatively un-useful to Japan. Canada has no current activity, and no resources. Denmark has made some small revisions and submitted it to the WG15 collection. UK is still working on their profile and locale; the latest version is available at: http://www.ex.ac.uk/~DCannon/UKprofile/profile.html Netherlands are looking at the problem. 3.3.2 WG15 collection of profiles, locales and charmaps A Chinese profile was distributed by KS to the interested IEEE people at the PASC meeting in October. 3.3.3 CEN registry, N148 Covered elsewhere. The registry is now a normative EC specification, as ENV 12005. 3.4 10646 guidance, WG15 AI9410-05, N146R WG15 actioned RIN to conjoin N146R and WG15 N621. KS responded to the problems raised in N621, indicating that most of them were addressed by the UTF-8 encoding. 9510-16 KS to add a paragraph to N146r indicating that UTF-8 addresses many of the problems raised in N621. The revised paper to be circulated by email for comment and then passed to WG15. Canada has reservations re N146, and plans to produce an input paper to the discussion. 3.5 Review of ToR & Pow [N122] BN asked how we knew from the ToR when an item of work was complete. He proposed that once a document reached CD registration it passed from RIN's area of interest to WG15. This was approved by the meeting, and a suitable fatherhood statement would be added to the start of the ToR. A resolution for approval of the revised ToR by WG15 to be drafted. The UK proposed that references in the ToR to Disposition of Comments on CD ballots should either be struck from the ToR or a resolution be drafted asking for specific authorisation from WG15 that it approve RIN's participation in such editorial meetings. The meeting agreed with one vote against (Dk) to remove references to Disposition of Comments meetings from N164 (N122 revised). Canada proposed removal of the reference to the CEN registry until clarification from WG15. This was approved. US proposed the removal of the GPNPNL entry, on the basis that RIN has done the required work to prepare the base documents and NP, but that further work on the WI if approved is at the discretion of WG15. A resolution to WG15 asking for specific authorisation for RIN to proceed with work on the GPNPNL document was suggested. This was agreed, with the dissent of Denmark for removal of the GPNPNL entry. An entry to be added indicating that the initial draft and NP on GPNPNL were prepared in RIN, and are 'Done'. Netherlands proposed that the Status of 1003.0 was 'Done' 3.6 Symbolic letters [N145] Netherlands do not see the use of a soft hyphen as a solution to the problem characterised in N145. No other solution has been identified yet. 9510-17 KS and HW to work together on potential solutions to the Symbolic letter problem, as characterised in N145, and report back to RIN in May 1996 on their findings. WG15 9510-??: Review and comment on the content of the Japanese report [N602] to WG15. This has been covered earlier in the meeting. 4. Liaison reports 4.1 Report of I18N IEEE 1003.x status (AB) KS briefly reported on other aspects of his attendance of the IEEE meeting of the previous week. 4.2 Liaison reports: SGFS, SC22, WG20, WG14, WG21, CEN TC304 (KS) Keld's tutorial on: [N156, N157 N161] Due to lack of time KS ran briefly through reports presented in N156, N157 and N161 4.3 Uniform / X/Open JIG No report 4.4 X/Open I18n No report 4.5 Other I18n activity No report 5. Review/approval of Resolutions, Action Items and Issues list Resolutions: R9510-01 CEN Cultural Registry Whereas there is substantial disagreement within RIN as to whether or not discussion of the CEN Cultural Registry is within the scope of RIN's terms of reference or programme of work, RIN requests of WG15 an explicit clarification of this issue and/or an assignment of work. (Unanimous approval) R9510-02 Adoption of SD3 WG15 RIN adopts its issues list SD3 as amended 1995-10-27 and approves its forwarding to WG15 in response to a WG15 action item. (5 in favour, Dk against.) R9510-03 Adoption of Terms of Reference and Programme of Work WG15 RIN approves WG15 RIN N164 as a statement of its current terms of reference and programme of work for forwarding to WG15 for approval. (5 in favour, Dk against.) R9510-04 Assignment of Work to RIN Whereas RIN had a key role in the development of the NP for the "Guidelines for National Profiles and National Locales", therefore RIN requests that WG15 assign the development of the working draft of this document to RIN. (3 in favour, US CA against, J abstain.) R9510-05 Thank you to host. SC22/WG15 RIN extends its appreciation to ANSI, IEEE PASC and especially to Barry Needham for hosting this meeting. SC22/WG15 RIN also thanks Keld Simonsen for chairing the meeting, Dave Cannon for his secretarial services and the drafting committee consisting of Barry Needham and Dave Blackwood for their contributions, and a general appreciation to all for attending. (Unanimous approval.) Actions: The actions as presented in these minutes were accepted. They are replicated here for convenience: Action Items: WG15 RIN, Orlando, 26-27 October 1995 9510-01 KS: Canada requested that its National Reflector address be used instead of the named person on the RIN email reflector. 9510-02 HW to check on requirement for 'substitute' by the Netherlands. 9510-03 Canada to check its view of the status of the 'reorder-after' Issue at the request of Denmark, and to report back to the next WG15 meeting. 9510-04 Dk to supply an input paper to Issue 6 within 6 months or the Issue will be closed. 9510-05 Japan to check if the reference to IS 9899:1995 would satisfy their requirements for MSE support in 9945-1, and to report their findings back to WG15. 9510-06 KS to investigate the possibility of having the latest versions of the 9945-1 standard reference the 9899:1995 C standard, including the MSE addendum. 9510-07 Lead Rapporteur to investigate the availability of expertise to apply to the problem of regular expressions within 1003.2x and to report back to WG15 at its October 1996 meeting. 9510-08 Rapporteurs to review and respond to the parts of N158 which address the LC_COLLATE proposal, with specific attention to whether it can be resolved by changes only to the localedef specification, or whether changes to the API are required in order to handle the proposed localedef extension. 9510-09 Add the section on LC_COLLATE in N158 into the Issues list. 9510-10 Rapporteurs to review and respond to the Japanese proposal for LC_CTYPE extension for locale-specific character mapping in N158. 9510-11 Add the Japanese proposal for LC_CTYPE extension for locale- specific character mapping to the Issues list as Issue 15. 9510-12 US to request clarification on the COPY issue from the US development body dealing with .2b and report back to RIN. 9510-13 Character concepts in POSIX [N441] to be added to the issues list as Issue 16. [It is believed that the Japanese MB has submitted further papers on this subject, eg WG15 N372 - these to be added to the history of this Issue] 9510-14 Action on US, Denmark and Japan to consider the proposal in N160 re the WIDTH... statements, with attention to whether WIDTH... should be handled in the locale as in the N160 proposal, or as represented in 1003.2b D11. 9510-15 Add Issue 17 to describe the DS perceived problem with range expressions in .2b D11. N160 2.8 o 5 refers. 9510-16 KS to add a paragraph to N146r indicating that UTF-8 addresses many of the problems raised in N621. The revised paper to be circulated by email for comment and then passed to WG15. 9510-17 KS and HW to work together on potential solutions to the Symbolic letter problem, as characterised in N145, and report back to RIN in May 1996 on their findings. Issues: The Issues to be sent to the email reflector, once the latest mods have been incorporated as indicated in these minutes. 5.1 Permanent Document number assignment All documents have permanent numbers, as listed at the head of these minutes. 5.2 Recommendations for WG15 KS volunteered to pass the resolutions and appropriate documents to WG15 in his report to the next plenary. 6. Closing Procedures 6.1 Future meeting considerations -- agenda, request for invitations Next meeting in Copenhagen, in May 1996, with one day in conjunction with WG15 plenary. RIN additionally proposes to use the friday as a 'RIN only' day. No RIN meetings are planned for the intervening period. 6.2 Thanks to host WG15 RIN offered its thanks to ANSI, to WG15's US Member Body, and to the Computer Society of the IEEE for the excellent facilities provided at the Stouffer Renaissance, Orlando, all of which contributed to the success of the meeting. The meeting adjourned at 11:59:43 EDT on 27-Oct-1995. -- _________________________________________________________________________ David Cannon University of Exeter, IT Services Laver Building, North Park Road Systems/Network Programmer Exeter, EX4 4QE, Devon, UK Phone: +44 (0)1392 263998 Fax: +44 (0)1392 211630 _________________________________________________________________________